Doctrine of Unconditional Election

You know watchman, you are not posting your replies to any particular post, as such they mat go completely unnoticed. I only saw these because I was scrolling the thread.

Israel is land that was born in a day. The prophesy start clock went into high gear in 48. Abrahamic Covenant is being fulfilled. The Jews who were scattered are coming back to the land. They lost use to the land but never the deed. God will keep his unconditional covenant.

Okay, now I am replying a second time. I really don't know why but the Lord seems to have laid this upon me.

You say you want to know the truth more clearly? Okay then.....

In your previous post to me you stated the following: QUOTE:

"So Eph 1:4 isn't about God choosing who will be a believer, but that He chooses (elects) believers. And the verse even tells us for what: to be holy and blameless. That's service, if it is not clear to you."

You have completely misrepresented verse 4 in your statement. How? When you said: "... but that He chooses (elect) believers." You have erred grammatically in your interpretation. You make God's choice in the "present tense" when it is clearly "past tense" in the Greek. Additionally, this choice was before the foundation of the world and thus, before anything was created.

Are you thinking of Romans 8 and trying to place this here?

when you wont look at the actuall verses in question. You will never see it.

You can run,, But there will come a time when you can not hide.

Anyone truly interested in knowing God's word just can not read those chapters or the Old Testament alone and come to spiritual wisdom --you obviously don't understand how God wrote the Bible: He wrote it as ONE integrated book. That which was begun in the Old Testament was completed in/by the New Testament in Christ and in no other way. All of the Bible starts with, and ends with, Christ.
If you try to isolate the OT verses as being self-contained, you will miss the message.
The Old Testament writings were not intended by God to be perceived as stand-alone, nor as ends in themselves which God just happened to pass-through to the New Testament as-is. From the OT to the NT it is the progressive revelation of God's doctrines, all of which must terminate in Christ and in Christ alone - He is the apex of the spiritual pyramid, with everything beneath and culminating in, by, and for Him - with nothing left outside of Him. This is why I wanted to know if you are a Christian - because in being so, I expected you to have perceived this concept on you own, or at the least, to be open to it.
Anyway, read these verses closely. As of right now though, I'm not too hopeful you'll get it, However, should any shine through to you, let me know and I'll try to expound upon them if you'd like.

[Luk 24:27 KJV] 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

[Jhn 5:39 KJV] 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

[Psa 40:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
[Heb 10:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

[2Co 1:20 KJV] 20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

[Act 18:28 KJV] 28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

[2Ti 3:15 KJV] 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

I hit the reply button as I am doing know and the thread is one I posted and was responding to rogerg. I was thanking I was doing it right 70 yo and loosing a steep I really want to be clear because this is something I thank is important to understand. Just who are Gods elect. I don't believe it is everyone that is saved. Like the Apostles were chosen for a specific time and job Gods elect in the end times will stand against Satan as stated in Luke 21.

Sorry, Thewatchman, if your reply was to me, I missed it so please repost - thx. And don't sweat the age thing

Your reply to me worked fine. I am not sure what happened before.

Understanding God's Elect is very, very important. In the simplest terms, God's Elect are the ones who will truly believe in Christ and therefore be saved. Election was needed because without it, no one would have been saved. (Romans 3:10-18). Election makes possible the New Birth of John 3:3-10, at God's appointed time. The New Birth makes discerning the Truth of God possible and the Truth discerned leads one to Jesus Christ. Therefore God's Elect = all who believe and all who believe = God's Elect. (John 6:44, 65 and 10:14-16, 29).

Many people call themselves saved, when in reality they are nothing more than Religionist. Just as the Religious Jews were of Jesus's day. Salvation is all of God - from beginning to end and everything in between.

What do you believe about election? What is God's purpose in electing?

Do you understand what v.4 is saying, by the words "as He has chosen us"? Chosen us for what?

Of course not. What's the point?

I think you maybe read through Genesis 2-3. You then may need to repent of your views.

Could you tell the thread who DID "cause the fall of mankind" since you aren't familiar with Genesis 3.

Thanks.

No, it is not offered to all but only for those chosen by God for it.

And, in thinking about it further, let me add to/clarify my previous post (to you) that both the Old Testament and the New Testament
are about Christ and His salvation. They are NOT about worldly nations or people though they may seem to be on the surface.

All of this is true but does not even address the purpose of God's election in v.4, which is TO BE holy and blameless.

Correct. But you are reading all of Eph 1 through faulty lens by thinking that God chose people to BE IN HIM but the verse does NOT say or mean that.

Without question! However, you have already indicated a faulty view of God's sovereignty. Sovereignty does NOT mean that God is the determinate factor in all things. God permits evil to exist, but He NEVER causes sin.

Your views have God the direct cause of sin. I reject that with all my strength.

Nonsense. God, IN His total sovereignty, permits both angel and man to make their own choices. If you disagree, then you have to believe that God is the direct cause of sin.

No it wouldn't, but Calvinists cannot grasp the reality and truth about God and His sovereignty. So there's no use in even trying to explain it to you.

With your view, you HAVE TO believe that God is the direct cause of sin. Totally blasphemous.

Let's make this easy. If election IS unto salvation, then why aren't there ANY verses that simply make that point?

I've looked up EVERY use of "elect", "chosen", etc and have at least MOST of the verses that specifically address purpose in election.

And in EVERY case, the purpose is stated in terms of service. And NONE of them are stated in terms of salvation.

This is just so far off the rails. You don't really understand God's sovereignty. It is just sad that you have to believe that His sovereignty means that He makes all decisions among angels and humans. That's just puppetry or robotics.

That doesn't give God ANY glory at all. He is REDUCED to just "pulling the strings".

Here's more clarity on election to service:

1 Cor 1-
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Color coded for extreme clarity:

The red words are who God chooses.
The blue words are the purpose for which God chooses. Which is service. Certainly not salvation.
Well, that's a good start. Many Calvinists think the verse means that God chose who would believe, which it doesn't. It very clearly says that God chose us (believers)...to be holy and blameless (lifestyle of service to Him).

Quite true.

Quite untrue. Just because God is fully sovereign, doesn't mean He is the sole determinate factor in all things. That would mean that sin is caused by God. If you believe that horrible heresy and blasphemy, we're done here. I have nothing more to say.

There is NO contradiction with sovereignty allowing or permitting free choice among subjects.

You may thing Paul didn't have a choice, but he did.

Continued...

Here it is:


In fact, the experience on the road to Damascus was to prove to Paul that Jesus HAD BEEN resurrected. Up to that point, he, like all the other religious leaders, viewed Him as a mere human, and therefore blasphemous for claiming to be God's Son.

When he realized that Jesus HAD resurrected, he believed that Jesus was the Messiah. And he was able to prove it from the OT, which he began doing immediately. Acts 9:20 - At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.

Here is the purpose of Paul's election: 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Red words show who God elected. Blue words show the purpose of that election: service.

Thank you for agreeing with me. God's purpose in the electing or choosing of believers is for the purpose of being holy and blameless.

This is NOT about salvation, but about choosing ALL believers to be holy and blameless.

This means a lifestyle of holiness. That is service.

All of this is possible because we were placed IN CHRIST, by election, before the foundation of the world.

Click to expand...

No, the verse does NOT say or mean this. In fact, the "in Him" following the "us" is a parenthetical phrase that describes believers. iow, all believers are "in Him". It says nothing about being chosen to be "in Him". Believers are chosen TO BE holy and blameless.


Still nothing about being chosen for salvation.


Correct, but EVERY verse that specifies a purpose is for service, including Judas being chosen as the betrayer. John 6:70,71

This Glory is embodied in Jesus Christ and demonstrated in God's Election in Love and His Grace - so that all whom He chose, will be saved and Praise Him and Glorify Him forever and ever.

Click to expand...

Probably to learn something. Hope you are paying attention.

No, in your previous post, you AGREED that "us" and "believers" were synonymous. Now you are trying to change the goal posts. Why?

What are you talking about? I haven't made anything. It is obvously in the aorist tense. Where did I "make" it a present tense?

No sweat. God is also omniscient. I know calvinists seem to ONLY emphasize His sovereignty, but all His choices are from His omniscience.

Nope. Never crossed my mind.

He has chosen us before the foundations of the world. In other words back in the first earth age when we stood with Him against Satan. We will do that again at the end of this earth age while Satan is here.
Luke 21:13 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19In your patience possess ye your souls.
Delivering you up to the synagogues; What synagogues are these? Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
These synagogues are not just Jewish temples but any church where the true word of God is not tought chapter by chapter and with understanding, but the traditions of men that make void the word of God.
Back to Luke They will deliver you up to death: Who is death? Satan. Is he going to kill you ? NO! Verse 18 But not an hair on your head parish.

Hey, everybody.

To spare me from having to wade through 157 pages of posts here, could somebody please just give me a brief list of the differences of opinion here in relation to what "election" is?

Thanks in advance.

FreeGrace2 Am I understanding you right All Christians must be born again this would include Gods elect but not all born again christians are Gods elect. This is what I believe. His elect have been called and chosen before the foundation of this world to serve Him in a special way at a special time. That time has been at times throughout the ages. The prophets, the apostles, and well be again when Satan comes as the Antichrist.

FreeGrace2 said:
What do you believe about election? What is God's purpose in electing?

Do you understand what v.4 is saying, by the words "as He has chosen us"? Chosen us for what?
What do you mean by "first earth age" and "standing with Him against Satan"? Where in the Bible is this mentioned?

What verse/passage says this?

No, this passage doesn't say anything about what you said at the first of your post.

And, you didn't even address my questions about your understanding of what "election" is. And what God's purpose in election is.

Real simple. Calvinists claim that God elects or chooses who will believe, and use Eph 1:4 to propagate that idea.

But EVERY verse in the NT that conveys a purpose in election, is to service. Including Eph 1:4. The "us" in "God has chosen us" is defined in v19 as "us who believe". So, in fact, Eph 1:4 says that God chose believers. The "in Him" is a parenthetical phrase, and doesn't define the purpose of election.

The purpose is stated in the words "to be holy and blameless". This is an election to service, since being holy and blameless is a lifestyle to be lived.

An excellent example that clearly shows election is to service is here:

1 Cor 1:27,28

27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

Red words refer to what God has chosen.
Blue words refer to the purpose of God's election: service.

John 6:70,71 proves that election is NOT to salvation:

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Red words refer to who God has chosen.
Blue words refer to the purpose for which Judas was chosen. Again, service.

No, you are NOT understanding me correctly.

Eph 1:4 clearly states that God has chosen (elected) ALL believers to be holy and blameless (lifestyle of service).

All election is to service. There are NO verses showing election to be to salvation. John 6:70,71 proves this.

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Judas was chosen as the betrayer. This doesn't mean Judas was forced to be the betrayer. Per Acts 17:26,27 God has placed every human being WHEN and WHERE they exist. The purpose is stated in v.27.

Since omniscient God has always known who would have the opportunity to work with Jesus in His ministry and YET STILL betray Him, God placed Judas in the exact spot he found himself (location and time) so that he could betray Him.

iow, God gave Judas the opportunity to do what he would do. That's how low Judas was. In spite of seeing first hand ALL the miracles that Jesus did, he STILL was motivated to betray Him.