Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

Now, hammering the point home, why do you think Paul asked the questions in 1 Corinthians 15:29?

This is certainly a reference to water baptism since humans can only do water baptisms. The answers to these questions are rhetorical. People get water baptized so they will be resurrected. I firmly believe this is what the early church believed in.

No ritual in baptism...show me supporting scripture.
Baptism is the debate here.

QUOTE="2ndTimothyGroup, post: 4831750, member: 305370"]I've never heard of a Christian rejecting water baptism. But if they did, what are the results of a person refusing to be dunked underwater?

LOL...I do not argue.....the Bible speaks.

Thank you, Jeff. But actually, I popped that off in about twenty minutes or less. I wanted it to flow a bit differently, but I had to get it posted as soon as possible with limited time. There are clearer ways of expressing what I wrote, but I did the best I could for an off-the-cuff post. I wish I had the time I used to have.

I appreciate your contributions and am glad to see you here.

I will always answer the question..when I know what it is?

.What does this mean;

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

"what will those do who are baptized for the dead" This verse has caused major problems in interpretation. We have no parallel passages in Scripture.

I can't quite put my finger on it or articulate a good argument but when I read this it seems to say that the old (or dead) baptism was a symbol of the Current baptism of the Spirit. This Spirit baptism, now being available through the resurrection of Jesus, renders the older (symbolic) water ritual of no effect (dead).
Something like "what will those do that were water baptized and yet have no spiritual baptism?"

Just a feeling.

I will always answer the question..when I know what it is?

.What does this mean;

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

God's Word says that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by our own efforts or works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

1 Pet 3:21 says Baptism now saves us. "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It [Baptism] saves you by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ," (1 Pet 3:21)

It is Baptism that makes us New Creatures in Christ. In Baptism, we share in Christ's Life, Death and Resurrection. We die to sin and are born again to New Life. If you read an early Church Father like St. Augustine, it is clear the Early Church held this view of Baptism also.

Faith and Baptism go together. Suppose a person, after being baptized, sins and loses faith, baptism won't save him. But if he comes back to Christ, by confessing his sins, he can return to God's Grace. The first time, however, Baptism truly washes away sins in God's Name.

"And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his Name.’ (Acts 22:16)

FreeGrace2 said:
None say this. You've only shown 1 so far, but even it doesn't say what you want it to say.

Why don't you believe 1 Cor 15:23? It says "when He comes", a reference to the Second Advent, that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected.

What it doesn't say is "those who have been baptized in His name" will be resurrected.

So, all believers (regardless of whether baptized or not) will be resurrected when He comes back.

I fully DO understand all this. It is you who is confused and are reading the verses wrongly.

1 Peter 3:21 doesn't even mention faith. It's about the fact that we are saved by Holy Spirit baptism, which refers specifically to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at the moment of saving faith. Rom 3:2,5 makes this clear. The Greek word for baptism came to mean "to be identified with", since a cloth dipped (baptizo) in a dye took on the same color as the dye and was therefore identified with the dye.

Eph 1:13,14 very clearly shows that the indwelling Holy Spirit is the seal which IDENTIFIES the believer as God's possession.

And that is how one belongs to Christ. It is through faith in Christ.


Believing yes. Being baptized into Christ has NOTHING to do with water. This refers to the Holy Spirit. See above.


Thanks for verses that support what I believe, and refute what you believe. The last bolded phrase is very clearly about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is Spirit baptism. NO water involved.


This verse is MINE??? No, it is God's Word. Let's be clear about that.

Maybe you've noticed by now, belonging to Christ is tied closely to the resurrection

You are STILL reading verses wrongly. This verse is about believers (those belonging to Christ) will be resurrected when He comes.


There is nothing here about water baptism. Why do you seem to think so?

no you’re reading verses wrong.

There is a literal resurrection coming so the resurrection mentioned after baptism is literal.

It’s impossible to make a symbolic narrative about a real life event and then interpret it non-literally.

That’s chaos. Do you understand it better when it’s put like that?

Don't we wish it was that simple....just leave the anti christ group to say and post anything they wish. I don' t think so.
God...says herald the voice out.

1. 5335 herald - Dictionary of Bible Themes - Bible Gateway
   www.biblegateway.com/.../5335-herald
   5335 herald. One who proclaims a message or paves the way for a promised event. In Scripture both angels and human beings are employed as heralds, and on occasions even specific events may herald future happenings. Heralds in human affairs

Many more references.

Hello sir,

First of all, I really appreciate phrases like, "As far as I can tell." When you, or any person, write in this way, to me it says that you are being honest in what you believe, that you're not intentionally pulling the "wool" over anyone's eyes. Second, I will admit that there [is] a possibility that your position is True. My Spirit within tells me that your position is inaccurate, but I am NOT God. What's more, I'm human and could absolutely be wrong (as I have been wrong in the past). Therefore, I am not here to convince anyone of anything [beyond a shadow of a doubt). And perhaps this is why I am not the arguing type. I have felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, so I hesitate to be the "speaker" for the Lord. I am not nor will I ever be Moses. The Lord does [not] require me for anything.

Again, I appreciate that you have shown a sense of flexibility in your words and phrasings. Much respect to you.

I agree, that we do seem to be "commanded" to be Baptized. However, I'm not entirely convinced that Jesus is commanding this act in order to procure any sense of Purity. However, Christ [could] very well be commanding such an expectation. However, such a command would tend to lean towards legalism and "works" (in my mind).

In answer to my question of "What happens if we reject Baptism," you graciously responded with, "I don’t know what happens, but probably wise to not test it."

Well, we actually have the answer through the Lord's discussion with Abraham. Check this out:

Genesis 17:14 NLT - "Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant."

I realize that you may disagree, but physical circumcision is equated to post-Christ water Baptism. Physical circumcision represents the Spiritual Circumcision of the Heart. The hidden Mysterious Plan of God (as Paul states it in Eph chapters 2 and 3) is that if a person rejects physical circumcision, they are rejecting the Purity of life that God expects. To refuse physical circumcision equates to refusing to pick up our cross and bear it. Or, it is the rejection of the idea of giving up a sinful life and the multitude of remarkable pleasures that comes with it. For example . . . sex, alcohol, sex, and more alcohol. To bring this back to Baptism, it is easy to say, "I believe in Jesus, therefore, I must be a Christian . . . but I refuse to be baptized (and scoffed at by my friends)".

Today, many believe that water Baptism saves just as much as the Jews thought that their physical circumcision saved them, or, brought them Eternal Life. Check this out:

Acts 15:1 NLT - "While Paul and Barnabas were at Antioch of Syria, some men from Judea arrived and began to teach the believers: "Unless you are circumcised as required by the law of Moses, you cannot be saved."

The Jews were so close to understanding, but being close to the gates of Heaven does not grant entrance. Why? Because the fulcrum of Salvation depends on Circumcision of the Heart . . . which is what was instituted in the life of Abraham per Genesis chapter 17 (which I referenced above).

Romans 2:27-29 NLT - "In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God's law but don't obey it. 28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."

So what is True Circumcision of the Heart according to Old Testament Scripture? We have it clearly written many times, and here is one clear example of what Circumcision of the Heart:

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."

This is what was instituted in the life of Abraham. When God said, Genesis 17:1a KJV - ". . . the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect" God was asking Abraham to do these things, rather, God was sprinkling him with Holy Water, giving him a New Heart, perhaps giving him a New Spirit SO THAT he would follow the Lord's decrees and sense of obedience within him to a degree that Abraham had not had before. This is Spiritual Circumcision of the Heart. And more, this IS THE PROMISE that God made to the offspring of Abraham. This is the True Promise; the Promise of being Chosen by God; the Promise of being given a new Heart, Soul, and Mind (of Christ).

So what is Circumcision of the Heart? Paul makes this Mysterious Plan of God ultra-clear. Paul gave us this remarkable Scripture:

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature." ... 13 "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

Yes, I left out verse twelve which discusses water baptism, but this baptism is for those AFTER the Day of Christ. But make no mistake about it, this is True Spiritual Circumcision which was taking place at least with our first True Prophet, Abel. For, no True Prophet who is the spokesman for God can remain under the Curse of the Lord. So we know for sure that Christ, who WAS before Abraham was born, was Circumcising Hearts well before He lived in the flesh.

All who the Lord loves will receive Circumcision of the Heart. Here is another reference:

Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV - "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

So if we reject physical circumcision, we are cut off from the Family of Circumcision. And if baptism is the exact same reflection as that of physical circumcision, then rejecting water baptism will result in the same, which is to be cut off from the Family of Water Baptism. But again, what do these two acts represent? They both are stating that they have been Baptized by the Spirit, and anyone who has been Baptized by the Spirit will long to do as the Lord says, such as become physically circumcised or for us today, to become water Baptized. Those who are saved will risk their lives to perform this outward, Spiritual reflection of what has taken place on the inside, which is Circumcision of the Heart.

On the Day of Pentecost, men left their wives and children to fend for themselves, for they had recanted on Judaism and were murdered for it. For recanting on the Law of Moses and accepting water Baptism, for many, this resulted in death. After the Eunuch accepted Christ after the lengthy teaching from Phillip, he said, "Look! There is some water. Why shouldn't I be baptized right now!" And so he was. A True Christian will be willing to die to perform such a demonstrative act, just as I am willing to die simply for saying the name Jesus.

And this is why don't recommend that a person reject water Baptism. Not because it contains some sort of Power, but because of what it reprents in terms of True Faith and becoming a New Man who now possesses the Divine Nature and the Mind of Christ.

So, it's a "he said, he said". Well, I believe Scripture is clear enough. Each man for himself. But your "take" on 1 Cor 15:29 is bizarre, since NO commentators are able to figure out what Paul meant. And commentators are the ones who have access to historical documents that help understand the time the Bible was written.

Since NO commentator knows what Paul was referring to, why should ANYONE accept your view?


Pretty sure everyone knows that.


You've been given very reasonable explanations of what Paul could have meant.


Since commentators, who have spent their entire careers studying Scripture and history, can't explain it, I really bother myself over that single verse. It has NO bearing on my Christian life. None whatsoever

Water baptism is symbolic of Spirit baptism. Period. And 1 Cor 15:29 does NOT SAY that water baptism is necessary for the literal resurrection. 1 Cor 15:23 proves that clearly.

The single criteria for the literal resurrection is to "belong to Christ". That's it. You even admit that water baptism isn't required for salvation. So you are the conflicted one.

Water baptism isn't required for salvation, but you claim water baptism is required for resurrection.

You have no evidence at all. Not even commentators include your view as a possibility.

Faith without works is dead. But works without faith saves no one.

Baptism like the flood of Noah is symbolic. One must be true in their heart to allow the Spirit to move them to a new birth.

Born of water in John 3:5 speaks of physical birth as in when the woman's water breaks.

Two births
Or
Two deaths

One must be born in order to be reborn.

God's NT command of water baptism

I'm flexible with the Bible up until a point, just because I believe it is written with intentional ambiguity. Few things in the Bible, especially the New Testament, are easy to nail down with any certainty. For example, we have this water baptism thread and very few people seem to 100% agree with each other. That's because the Bible isn't clear enough.

My interpretation of water baptism being for the first resurrection reconciles why the Bible says that water baptism saves, but also says that faith in Christ saves. Either there are multiple ways to get saved, multiple prerequisites to salvation, or there are different kinds of salvation. Once you understand my line of thinking, it actually gives a lot more grace to the Bible, avoids salvation contradictions, and is contextual: water baptism and the resurrection are completely within context of each other. Water baptism is about saving the body in the resurrection.

That's my belief and if I can be given a clear verse that says "Water baptism has nothing to do with the first resurrection." Then I would quickly change my beliefs. Unfortunately, we could only hope for a Biblical message so clear so as to completely harmonize the faith in unity of knowledge. Thus, Christianity is severely fractured into thousands of denominations.

Bottom line is that I agree with you that circumcision was a matter of faith and that water baptism is a matter of faith.

Flood waters - is the type or symbolic of what later became a reality in the NT. God's NT command of water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is the antitype (the real thing). This truth is spelled out in 1 Peter 3:20-21.