Ephesians 4:11-16

Ephesians 4:11-16 says that there are five ministries that Jesus set in the churches which are to remain in the churches until the end of time. Why do some people say that apostles and prophets are no longer relevant or legitimate functions or ministries in churches today?

I don’t see that as often as I see some that talk about the manifestation of the spirit being not in operation today …citing 1Co 13:8-10 and stating ....that which is perfect is the completed Word of God.

But when you run into people like that you should hear them out to see where they are coming from. Sometimes it’s a bad experience, sometimes it’s what they have been taught, sometimes it just being unlearned….. and sometimes it’s just a refusal to believe.

Whatever it is …..their assessment is inaccurate …..I am not saying I am right …But I am stating unequivocally that God’s Word is Truth and I will stick with what the Word states, and not what man has determined.

There were only 12 Apostles chosen and set apart by Face and Command of the LORD.

All other true apostles that come after the 12 will and must completely adhere to and submit to "it is written" from Genesis to Revelation.

There is no new Scripture being written down to be added to Scripture or by taking away from Scripture.

The prophetic ministry is in everyone who has the Anointing of the Holy Spirit to proclaim/preach the Gospel.
True prophetic ministry for His Body is for the edification of the Body of Christ.
Same is true of Pastors and Teachers.
TRUE & AUTHENTIC apostles, prophets pastors and teachers will ONLY confirm the Word as "it is written".

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
Revelation 22:18-19

See Ephesians 2:20: "So then, you are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,"

The apostles and prophets laid the foundation; once a foundation is laid you can't lay another. This is one of the main passages used by those who say apostles and prophets are no more. But let's look at this.

For one thing, the apostles haven't vanished; they still speak to us through the New Testament. My only objection is to those who say we now have modern-day apostles who speak with the same authority as the original apostles. In the New Testament there are apostles (lower case) and Apostles (upper case). The word apostle means "one who is sent." The Apostles were special messengers of Jesus Himself; they spoke with authority and wrote scripture. The other apostles we simply messengers sent back and forth between people and congregations.

Ephesians 2:20 also says the foundation was laid by the prophets. The same logic can be applied as was applied to apostles. The foundation has been laid and you can't lay another. I'm a little less dogmatic about saying there no longer remain modern-day prophets, but those who laid the foundation seem to be a special category of prophets. I'm cautious about giving modern-day prophets the same authority and status as those early prophets. There are a lot of so-called prophets out there today who aren't prophets at all but speak from their own imaginations.

The accompanying signs, miracles and wonders were for particular purposes in setting up the early churches and communicating Gods Word.

That was completed and fulfilled, so the sign gifts become unnecessary and put away.

That isn't to say God cant heal or do miracles but not thru the gifts.

Be careful = you are opposing the Word of God and have not a single Scripture that confirms your view.

Also Ephesians 4 has a point where they all come to the knowledge of the unity of the faith.

This is a measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.. that allows believers to be matured in the faith.

Question: whatvus this?

Well we've already been thru this. Ephesians 4, can be compared with 1 Corinthians 13, where both have a point at which the gifts fulfill their purpose.

Part prophecy and tongues completed by the perfect.

Offices of prophet with accompanying signs and wonders until they come to the 'knowledge of the unity of the faith ' 'unto a perfect man's

1 Corinthians 13 doesnt show cessation alone.. but with other scripture does.

Pauls point as this verse indicates. When He who is perfect is fully revealed in His glory, then anything said everything partial will be swallowed up in that fullness. A day of completeness and perfection is coming. everything partial, temporary, or inadequate shall vanish in the light of Christs brilliant power and glory. I believe this.

Satan can't create or do good wonders or his kingdom would fall. The gifts are still working as they did with them over two thousand years ago. We do know it was 120 right? They all were filled and then anyone else that just asked Luke 11:13. Blind still see deaf hear dead rise..all happening right now. Also if there is doubt..then let not that man think he will receive anything from God. As long as one doubts they will never see these things. God will not go against what you believe. Don't believe in Jesus? He won't make anyone believe yet that changes nothing for He is still very real.

We read in Rev as Christ comes sets foot on the earth He gathers the nations that just came out of the great tribulation and splits them. One side did signs and wonders of GOD not of Satan. Jesus told them I never knew you. They were never saved. Now the reason there was signs and wonders well its like Peter and John said after the man at the gate was healed. They said to them looking ..why look at us as if we did this by our own power? Its that name its faith in that name. So the person up front can be fake but that NAME will work ever time someone has faith in that name! Don't believe you will not see these things.

Genesis, Gospel of John, Acts and 1 Corinthians specifically declare when the Gifts will no longer be needed.
No other Scripture speaks or even hints at a so-called "cessation" of Gifts.
You must find the Truth concerning this from the Scripture alone or you will miss out - not on salvation but on that which is written:

"Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
Acts ch2

the PERFECT is CHRIST
The Scripture is not the "perfect" to which makes us complete.
Rather it is the Holy Spirit that completes us in Christ.
The Scripture without the Spirit is just a book.

Not one yot or tittle shall pass untill all is fulfilled.
JESUS CHRIST THE SAME YESTERDAY..TODAY...AND FOREVER.
HEAVEN AND EARTH SHALL PASS AWAY....BUT MY WORD SHALL NOT.
FOR I AM A NEVER CHANGING GOD.

So if Jesus is the perfect in 1co 13....

The perfect is neuter gender when looking at the Greek.. it is a 'thing' or 'that' .. relating to something inanimate.

Also.. whatever is in part in 1co 13 is completed by the perfect.

So the perfect would be a completion of prophecy, tongues and knowledge..which are all ties to the progressing revelation of scripture at the time.

Now.. following this though is the seeing 'face to face ' .. which can be interpreted either way to be about Jesus or scripture..

So 1 co 13 doesn't stand alone and is supported by the likes of Ephesians 4 and other scripture.

Added to this is the experience of what people are calling tongues and prophecy compared to what the guidelines set down by Paul are and the case for at least sign gifts finished is strong.

I see a couple of misunderstandings.

1. The foundation of the apostles and prophets.

`For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST.` (1 Cor. 3: 11)

The ONLY foundation of the Body of Christ is JESUS CHRIST. It is His Body, He was made Head of it by His Father, He is building and maturing it through His 5 fold ministries.

The apostles and prophets (of the ascended Lord) lay the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST as HEAD of the Body. It is NOT those men themselves BUT the REVELATION that the Lord gave them through His Holy Spirit AFTER He ascended.

2. The 12 apostles were to be WITNESSES of Jesus ` life, death, resurrection and ascension. (Acts 1: 22)

The other apostles and prophets that Jesus gave, are to equip His Body for the work of the ministry and they were given AFTER He ascended and was made HEAD OF THE BODY. (Eph. 4: 11 & 12)

Two different purposes there.

the Apostle Paul makes a CLEAR distinction between the 'written scripture' = "for now we see dimly as in a mirror"
AND
the LORD Jesus Christ, the "perfect" = "face to face"

What you must do is find the TRUTH in the Scripture that FULLY tells us/commands us when the Gifts of the Holy Spirit will no longer be needed.

FACT CHECK: this was done here in this Post but there is more..........

Many interpret scripture by "that's the way I see it". It's usually wrong.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The sense here is, that "in heaven" - a state of absolute perfection - that which is "in part," or which is imperfect, shall be lost in superior brightness. All imperfection will vanish. And all that we here possess that is obscure shall be lost in the superior and perfect glory of that eternal world. All our present unsatisfactory modes of obtaining knowledge shall be unknown. All shall be clear, bright, and eternal.
Matthew Poole's Commentary
But when we come to heaven, we shall be in such a state, as nothing shall or can be added to us; then our partial and imperfect knowledge shall be swallowed up in a knowledge perfect and complete.

In this world, we will NEVER be perfect. Only in the world to come.

I won't listen to any preacher who goes by a title "Apostle" so and so. Nor will I listen to any preacher that uses the title Dr. and they did not earn that degree by doing the necessary scholarly work. I suspect these kinds of people to be false, loving the praise of men.

"when that which is perfect is come" is when we are in that state of resurrection. When we see him face to face and are like him. We will know as we are known.

That which is perfect according to Paul was when he would attain the resurrected state which he called being made perfect in Philippians. 3

He said he was not already perfect but he pressed on toward that goal and would achieve it when he had obtained the resurrection from the dead. Now since Paul called that being perfect we can apply that to his statement in 1 Cor 13 that Paul considered "that which is perfect is come" as that STATE which he will obtain post resurrection and in that day he would know fully and not in part and have that face to face communion with Christ and no longer need the gifts like prophesy or tongues and interpretation of tongues, or these other gifts like words of knowledge. This state of perfection is still future for all of us.

Philippians 3
10My goal is to know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death, 11assuming that I will somehow reach the resurrection from among the dead.

12Not that I have already reached the goal or am already perfect, but I make every effort to take hold of it because I also have been taken hold of by Christ Jesus.

1 Cor 13:
But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will come to an end.
12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, as I am fully known.

In another scripture it compares reading the word as looking into a mirror. So the written word that we read acts like a mirror showing us what we look like (which isn't always pretty) and showing us what we should strive for. Perfection is our goal and that cannot be obtained until the resurrection. At that time we will not need these gifts. At that time they will cease.

"That which is perfect" reference by Paul in 1 Cor 13 is not Jesus or Scripture, it is our state of being post resurrection. What we will be in that day as it relates to our knowledge.

The word perfect in the bible is associated with completion and maturity.

teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Someone then can be mature and complete by the meditating on God's Word and application to their life.