What does "the coming of the Lord" in the NT refer to?

That is really quite simple. We have this stated: "and so shall we ever be with the Lord". (1) the Lord is presently in Heaven, (2) the Lord shall descend from Heaven, and (3) the Lord shall return to Heaven with all His glorified saints at the Resurrection/Rapture. That is why we shall be ever with the Lord. God expects you to connect the dots. Do you seriously believe that the Lord would not return to Heaven at that point?

While the first resurrection is indeed one resurrection for the saved, it occurs in three phases, just like a Hebrew harvest which had the first fruits, the main harvest, and the gleanings.

THE THREE PHASES OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION: 1 CORINTHIANS 15

PHASE I: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST AS "THE FIRST FRUITS" OF THE HARVEST
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

PHASE II: THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE AS THE MAIN HARVEST
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [Note: "at His coming" speaks of the Resurrection/Rapture, and verse 23 even shows two phases by "afterward"]

PHASE III: THE RESURRECTION OF THE TRIBULATION SAINTS BEFORE THE MILLENNIUM AS THE GLEANINGS
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [Note: "then cometh the end" includes all the events until the New Heavens and the New Earth from Revelation 20 to 22.]

FreeGrace2 said:
Then, please quote the exact words that teach that Jesus takes all the glorified believers to heaven.
I suppose you have no idea that all of this is just sheer presumption.

The blue words that you showed say NOTHING about a trip to heaven, as you already know. And they don't even suggest a trip to heaven.

The ONE resurrection of the saved will occur when Jesus Christ returns to earth as King of kings, ends the battle of Armageddon and then rules the nations with a rod of iron. Rev 20 and particularly v.5 proves this.

So, the blue words "and sh shall we ever be with the Lord" applies EQUALLY WELL for the post tribulation return of the Lord.

I certainly agree that we SHOULD CONNECT THE DOTS. I've even said that on other threads.

But, you are missing the real dots. There is just ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15 (1 each for saved and unsaved) and 1 Cor 15:23.

Take note particularly of 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Blue words refer to the resurrection, in order. There are 2 total.
Red words show Christ as the first to receive a glorified body. Acts 26:23 says so clearly.
Green words are the other group in the singular resurrection: those who belong to Him. That would be ALL believers, since ALL believers do belong to Him. It would be nuts to argue that there will be believers that somehow don't belong to Him.
Purple words tells us specifically WHEN this singular resurrection will occur: when He comes. And this is a singular event.

The OT prophesied that the Messiah would have two advents. His first advent was as a baby, to be the suffering servant. His second advent will be as King of kings, and Lord of lords, to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

So, "when He comes" it will be as King of kings, which will be at the end of the Tribulation. And Jesus will STAY on the earth, to rule the nations for 1,000 literal years.

There is zero justification for any of this. If you want to discuss growing wheat or other grain, then ok, but with the resurrection of the saved, there is just ONE. And Rev 20:5 tells us plainly that the resurrection of the trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection. The second one being the resurrection of the unsaved, for the GWT judgment at the end of the Millennial reign.


No, "when He comes" is WHEN the singular resurrection occurs. For ALL believers. The verse is too clear for such manipulations.

There is zero justification for this.

The reason pretribbers HAVE TO claim "phases" is because they don't want to let go of the notion of a pretrib rapture.

But since there are NO VERSES that show Jesus taking any glorified believers to heaven, there is no reason to believe such a story.

There is one resurrection, and NOT ANY phases to that one resurrection.

If there were 3 phases of resurrection, then the Bible would have simply said so.

There is no Scriptural justification for a glorified trip to heaven.

There is plenty of Scriptural justification for ONE resurrection that occurs "when He comes" back at the Second Advent.

That is a good afind but surely there must be more connecting hope to the day of the Lord, perhaps the day of the Lord is meant to be forebiding to the world but a day of hope for the church.

Yes! That day will be exactly that, a terrible day for the lost and a day of hope fulfilled for the found. And there are many more verses speaking of that day in reference to His return, coming again, appearance, etc.

No.

The first resurrection of the righteous is divided into two groups: one during the millennial kingdom and the rest after the millennial kingdom.

First resurrection group contains only those martyred in the great tribulation:
Revelation 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The second resurrection group occurs after the millennial kingdom:
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The reason we know that this is actually two groups of the first resurrection is that if this were a resurrection of the unrighteous then that means they would die a second time below:

Revelation 20:9
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This means that by the time the unrighteous are resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment, that their resurrection would be their third resurrection and their death in the lake of fire would be their third death, thus your interpretation creates scriptural contradictions and must be condemned as heresy:

Revelation 20:12-15
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Let us hope it is sooner than later I grow weary of this corrupted world and long to be in his glorious presence.

I want to agree, maranatha! Come Lord Jesus, but I also realize the ramification of His appearance in all His glory. Presently, we are allowed the grace such as Moses received, to see His backside so to speak, because if anyone were to look upon Him in in full glory while in our current state...well, scripture says that anyone that looks upon the Lord shall die. And so, as I see it, it will be at His return. He will destroy the antichrist with the brightness of His coming, and why it makes sense that we must be changed and put on incorruptible in order to be able to stand in His glorious presence (as even then we shall all kneel before Him).

This first resurrection occurs in conjunction of the beginning of His wrath, all the unsaved will die on the Day of the Lord, including the antichrist and the false prophet who will be sent to the lake of fire immediately, while all the rest will await judgment at the end of the millennial reign. So what I'm assuming is their resurrection occurs that space for the gathering together to the dragon, just to be condemned, hence the resurrection to condemnation. Imo, adhering too adamantly to a literal explanation of the visions of John's revelation is what causes potential believers to poo-poo at the reality of dragons and ten heads and mouth swords, and this is where we disastrously lose them.

Do you think the day of the Lord is after the millennial kingdom? I think the DOTL occurs simultaneously with the return of Christ.

Yes in order to actually experience him in full;; we must be changed. When he comes back he will come back not as a servant or savior but as a mighty king in full power and glory the scriptures do not make it seem like a good thing either as the world mourns when he does make his appearance.

Immediately after verse 16, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise," 1Thessalonians 4:17 says in the generally agreed upon context of the rapture, "After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

I believe the DOTL is the initiation of the Millennial Kingdom. Even though the dragon will gather all the forces he can muster up and attempt to overthrow the LORD, His kingdom will never end so, the "Day of the Lord" is perpetual from that point on.

The world will mourn because it'll have to 'wake up' to the reality they are not king, seeing the true King has come to claim all that is His which, otherwise, is a day of rejoicing for those that are His.

It says the dead are made alive 'at His coming'. This happens as Jesus is coming. It doesn't say the dead are made alive as He almost comes to earth and then goes back. Where does that idea come from in the Bible? What reason is there for us to interpret scriptures like this to fit with pre-trib? Where is pre-trib actually taught? I don't see any account of a rapture in the early chapters of Revelation. There is no reference to a rapture in Matthew 24 before 'the tribulation of those days.' Is there any scripture that actually teaches pretrib...to justify interpreting other passages in a convoluted way to align with it?

I addressed the 1Cor15:23 passage in the post at this link:

Post #823 (plus several other posts earlier in that thread and also after this one) - https://christianchat.com/threads/any-post-or-non-tribbers-in-here.204843/post-4822981

We do see the EFFECTS of the Rapture having already taken place, in the words said by the "24 elders" in Revelation 5:9 "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..." (not to mention their "stephanous / crowns," which Paul had said he would be awarded "IN THAT DAY"--note: not the day he DIES--And that 5:4 indicates that a searching judgment has already taken place, by its use of the "was found" word, as is also used in the latter parts of Acts when Paul had been brought before their human/earthly "bema seat")

The Subject matter being covered in Matthew 24 is NOT "our Rapture [in the air]"... Everything in Matt24:4 and following is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture".

"Rapture [in the air]" is not what Jesus is speaking about in His Olivet Discourse (ANYWHERE in it), but rather His Second Coming to the earth and the specific, future, LIMITED time-period that precedes and leads up to that (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age which commences upon His "RETURN" there [/to the earth] Rev19; see also Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and its parallel in His Olivet Discourse Matt24], where Lk12 states, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]).

I am so glad to see someone post this. I as beginning to thank I was the only one that believed this.

Where are we gathering back to?
First off lets understand 1st Thessalians 4: 13-18
The Return of the Lord
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep. Paul does not want any of us to be unlearned, or untaught about those which are asleep (dead). That you sorrow not, even as others that have no hope. We will greave the loss of a loved one but not like those that have no hope. Those that do not know Jesus. This is our subject. Verse 14. If we believe Jesus died and rose again the same will happen to those who have fallen asleep (died) The flesh and blood body dies returns to the earth from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Your loved one is not out there in some whole in the ground. Comfort one another with these words so we don' fall apart when a loved one dies. Greave yes we will but we also have the comfort of knowing they are with the Lord and in a better place and we will see them again. When is that? When Jesus returns to the Mt of Olives and brings that New Jerusalem with Him and it will fill that valley that He makes and we all our loved ones ourselves and most of all Jesus Christ Lord of lords and King of kings shall reign. Amen and Amen.

Precious friend, some of us respectfully Disagree - Please Be Edified:
Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With
The Second Coming, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
-------------------
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army, * “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

to be continued...

Part II

God's Prophetic Program, and second earthly coming

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?

Conclusion: verses Never "taken Out Of God's Context" and
"placed in HIS Other Context" will Never Cause Confusion. Amen?
---------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of Eternal Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Edified, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ 😇 ↑

You gave me a good laugh with: "It doesn't say the dead are made alive as He almost comes to earth and then goes back."

AMEN

You just called the Apostle Paul a liar. You need to read the Scripture before you post.

1 Thess 1:6 "And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction,"

1 Thess 2:14 "For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans,
who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us"

1 Thess 3: 1-4 Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this. For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.