Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

No, that's now what the verse says.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

So, in a nutshell, the red words refer to election.
Blue words refer to the PURPOSE of this election. Service. Believers who aren't holy and blameless in His sight aren't serving Him.

specifically, according to the good pleasure of His will - just as in v. 1 Paul declares himself to be an apostle by the will of God, as opposed to being this by Paul's own will.

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Another good example of election to service. Paul was elected to be an apostle.

i do not disagree that we are saved unto good works in His service. that'd be silly - v. 4 is clear about that; He chose us to be blameless & holy before Him

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Great! And that is my point.

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us" is a peculiarly intimate & specific word to use if what is really meant is a generic unknown placeholder for anyone who may happen to randomly believe out of their own will & effort & desire, don't you think?

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Do you think the "us" in v.4 is a different group than the "us" in v.19??

I don't. Both refer to believers.

Thanks. Catholics believe the same as most other Christians when it comes to the Blood of Jesus as the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins. We believe that when a person believes in Christ as Lord and Savior and is baptized, he passes from death to life. The Lord said: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mk 16:16). After passing from the state of death to the state of grace or supernatural life, all that is necessary for salvation is to persevere in the grace of justification already received. "To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life." (Rom 2:7, BSB). Catholics still believe, as St. Augustine said, that perseverance is a gift of God's Grace that we must pray for; e.g. which we pray for in Our Lord's Prayer when we ask not to be led into temptation. God will give this gift of perseverance to those who ask for it, and those who have it will infallibly persevere.

I personally believe everyone who prays the Lord's Prayer every day will be saved. God will give him grace to persevere.

St. Augustine:
"Chapter 9.— When Perseverance is Granted to a Person, He Cannot But Persevere."

Now, moreover, when the saints say, Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Matthew 6:13 what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them — which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him — that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led [i.e. into temptation], certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received [and is saved]." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm

The Calvinist view at first sight seems to be quite close to this. Yet, on closer examination, some differences appear. Calvinists seem to believe that, if you are justified, you can never fall away. And if you fell away, you were never justified.

Is that an accurate representation of the Calvinist position, Post Human? If it is otherwise, please correct me.

The Augustinian position, which I hold is (1) those who are truly justified may indeed fall away, but those (2) who receive Justification + Perseverance can never fall away. They are kept by the power of God to salvation by perseverance. God Bless.

Free Grace, I will respond to you subsequently. God Bless.

Faith off Jesus means that it is Jesus's faith (faithfulness to go to the cross) that justifies us and not our faith in Jesus. By changing the little word "off" to "in" changes the whole meaning of the verse to indicate that man's faith justifies himself when actually Jesus is the one who justifies man.

I fully agree with this. However, the gospel is not "spiritual things". It is a simple matter of trusting Jesus to save you. If you read all of 1 Cor 2, esp v.6 and 10, you will see what Paul was talking about; he was speaking to the wise (spiritually), iow the spiritually mature. And v.10 speaks of the "deep things of God", which are the deeper doctrines of the faith, that some or many believers have a hard time grasping.

Even Peter had difficulty with Paul's deep theological writings:

2 Pet 3-
Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Unbelievers ARE able to understand the gospel message. The issue is whether they believe the promise or not.

So you believe that Jesus didn't die for everyone. Correct?

It is believers that God gives His Son.

Do you have any verse that clearly communicates that Jesus didn't die for everyone, or that He died only for some group, however that is communicated?

This what I know
Roman 10
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Before the foundation of the eart God decide everyone that hear the Word and chose to believe predistend to be save

Parden me for inserting
Pardon me for injecting my thoughts into your discussion,. but I believe that 1 Cor 2:14 will clear up the fact that we have to be reborn spiritually before we can believe in spiritual things. Believing in the things of the Spirit comes only after we have been born spiritually.

I agreed with that. I also pointed out that the gospel is about trust in God's promise. Not what Paul called the "deep things of God".

And I quoted Peter's view of Paul's writings about the "deep things of God".

Again, agreed. Unbelievers cannot understand the "deep things of God" until they are born again and have the Holy Spirit.

But the gospel is NOT one of the "deep things of God". Too many believers misunderstand 1 Cor 2:14 or even abuse the verse by saying unbelievers can't even understand the gospel.

Free Grace,

You seem to be the opinion that Jn 10:27-28 is a slam dunk for your particular interpretation of OSAS or ES. Yeah, it isn't.

Let's read the verses in context: "27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (Jn 10:27-28)

You are trying to deduce from this verse that even Apostate Atheists can be saved, provided they once believed for a while.

Your conclusion, which is unique to you, does not follow. Let's read the 3 conditions again, and see how Apostates fail all.

1. The First Condition: His Sheep hear His Voice. Do Apostates and Atheists do this? Absolutely Not. They don't. So a fail.

[And even if you argue it is only a "description of what His Sheep do", atheists who were once Christians still fail it]

2. The Second Condition: I know them. The word know here means communion and fellowship with the Lord. Again, fail.

3. The Third Condition: They follow Me. How in the world do Apostate Atheists follow the Lord? Absolutely, they do not.

Therefore, Apostate Atheists do not have eternal life, because they have sinned unto death by their apostasy and atheism.

And here are 3 other verses which clearly confirm that your doctrine contradicts the doctrine of Christ and His Apostles.

1. "To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life." (Rom 2:7)
2. "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
3. "If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first." (2 Pet 2:20)

To whom will the Lord give Eternal Life on Judgment Day? To those who persevered in doing good, in seeking immortality.
Whom are they who are saved? Not those who draw back unto perdition. But only those who believe unto their salvation.

And the final verse is the clincher: The argument against Free Grace's Eternal Security (which I'm calling FGES for now, you can cite me any reputed Christian Pastor who has held it, if there are any, and I'll update the name) can be summarize as a logical syllogism like this:

Major Premise from 2 Pet 2:20: Those who apostatized after knowing the Lord are in a worse condition than unbelievers.
Minor Premise (from the Bible in general): But unbelievers in general, as we know e.g. from Mark 16:16 will be lost.
Conclusion: Therefore, the True Doctrine of Jesus Christ, is that apostates are in a worse state than ignorant unbelievers.

And this conclusion is also provable from the clear words of Jesus Christ Himself in the Gospel: "42And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food [h]in due season? 43Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has.

45But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more." (Luk 12:42-48)

What does the verse say? Those who knew the Lord's Will, but yet still did not do it, receive more stripes. That means a worse punishment in hell. Those who did not know God's Will, and therefore did not do it, also receive stripes, but less.

That means those who apostatize into atheism, after believing for a while, are not saved by any means, but worse than those who do not believe because they do not know the Lord's Will. The penalty of the latter will be less, the former more.

God Bless.

The gospel tells us how we are delivered eternally by God's grace, not how to get delivered eternally. The gospel are words that are inspired by a spiritual God instructing his adopted children, that have been born spiritually, as to how they are to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. A called out preacher's obligation is to teach these instructions to the new born babes in Christ (Isaiah 28:9-10) so that they may grow in the knowledge of the gospel to become good and faithful servants to their Father God. Those that are new born babes and those that are fully grown spiritually are many times tempted by their fleshly natures and commit sins which brings God's chastening rod upon them causing them to repent and be delivered from that sin. 1 Cor 2:14 clearly states that the natural man (un-regenerant) would never repent of breaking one of God's spiritual laws that he cannot discern. The new born babes in Christ cannot understand the deep things of the Spirit until they have grown in knowledge, but they can be taught spiritual things, unlike the un-regenerant man described in 1 Cor 2:14.

John 6:37 says that all that Jesus's Father gives him WILL come to him, and will in no wise be cast out. Verse 39 says all that the Father gave him, he would not lose any. Do these verses teach that God gave his Son all of mankind, if so, will he raise all of mankind up at the last day?

Yes, it is believers that God gives His Son, but only those that have been born spiritually in the new birth will believe in the things of the Spirit.

Only those that have been born of the Spirit in the new birth are able to hear and understand the words about spiritual things. 1 Cor 2:14.

Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Spirit that is given after we are born again of the Spirit Gal 5:22.

Thanks for the info…I didn’t know that. But that still doesn’t prove the Ten Commandments are not the Law of Moses and The Law of Christ.

Eph 2 says that when we receive the gift of eternal life, we are spiritually "dead" in sin. It is impossible for a spiritually dead man to receive a spiritual gift.

I just looked at 13 different versions and 11 said 'in Christ'
one said 'by the faithfulness of Christ' (NET)
one said 'by the faith of Christ' (KJV) (even NKJV said 'faith in Christ'.)

I suppose it can be argued both are true... We are justified by faith in the faithfulness of Christ.

I see the greater confusion coming from man's tendency to add himself into the mix, so he gets some glory rather than ascribe ALL glory to God. (our little deity doesn't die easily).

Well, it sure is. Couldn't be any more clear.

Excuse me, but I'm NOT "deducing" anything. I simpy believe what Jesus said, which, apparently, you do NOT.

It is not unique to me. Many people clearly understand what Jesus said and meant. And it does follow, whethere you can follow or not.

Oh, excuse me again, but there aren't "3 conditions" anywhere in the verse. That is WHY you aren't understandinga " what Jesus said.

He didn't give ANY conditions in either verse.

Your conclusion is a BIG fail. What you ERRONEOUSLY call a "condition" is just a description.

It is STILL not a condition. So it is YOU who fail this reading assignment.

No, YOU fail again. knowing them isn't a condition, but rather a description.

And this is YOUR third fail. You are on a roll. Again, rather than a "condition" as you erroneously think, it is a description.

v.27 is a statement about what Jesus' sheep DO, or OUGHT TO DO. There are NO WORDS that create any kind of "condition" that leads to a result.

I suppose you actually have a verse that says what you opine here? No, you don't. Your opinion fails.

Jesus told us in John 5:24 WHO possesses eternal life: whoever believes. So, from the MOMENT one believes, they POSSESS eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Rather than a "conditiion", we have a CAUSE and EFFECT.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus who gives it.
The EFFECT of possessing eternal life is the recipient shall never perish.

Are you aware that Rom 2:6-8 teaches that ONLY perfect people will earn eternal life. And Paul then goes on in Rom 3:9,10, 20,23 that NO ONE can do that. Because all are sinners. Note esp 3:20. He flat out states that no one will be justified by the law.

Another reading FAIL. John 5:24 is very clear. Believers POSSESS (have) eternal life. They possess it the MOMENT they become believers.

Right. Good luck with trying to do that. Paul already noted that NO ONE can.

According to Jesus, John 5:24 says those who believe POSSESS eternal life. Do you believe Jesus?

And....your FINAL "conclusion" is one big failure.

2 Pet 2:20 isn't about loss of salvation, but rather, the believer who does turn back will experience his life on earth worse that it was before he was saved. Do you know why? No, of course you don't. So I'll tell you. God's discipline is painful. Heb 12:11. Such a believer will be miserable. And read 1 Cor 11:30 for the usual sequence of how God's discipline is meted out.

I guess you want to prove that Jesus has contradicted himself. But I'm not going to let you. What you quoted is a parable. Not a doctrinal statement. If you want to know what Jesus taught doctrinally, read John 5:24 and 10:28.

Your views directly contradict and conflict with what Jesus taught. You are very confused when you read the Bible.

Jesus said, in the clearest of words, that those He gives eternal life to, which is WHEN they believe, they shall never perish.

That, in the clearest of words, is the doctrine of etenal security. You are free to mock, belittle, reject, etc what Jesus taught.

But what you CANNOT do is twist His words in either John 5:24 or 10:28 to make it appear to say something other than what it actually says.

This doesn't make sense. When a person believes and is given eternal life, they are "made alive" which is spiritual life. Not death.

Haha. I notice you clearly ignored the teaching, of both the Lord and St. Peter, that apostates are in a worse state than ignorant unbelievers. This doesn't fit with your teaching, but it is nonetheless true, because it is the teaching of Jesus Christ. Unless you want to place ignorant unbelievers, beaten with fewer stripes in Heaven, you cannot Biblically place apostates and atheists there. Without faith it is impossible to please God and those who die unrepentant in unbelief are lost.

I'll address the rest later, but as for: "I suppose you actually have a verse that says what you opine here"

Yes, I have several, beside those I cited above, but here are just two:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (Heb 11:6)

Since everyone in Heaven will please God, and praise Him day and night, it is impossible for those without faith, like atheists to go to Heaven. That is Christianity 101.

As for sinning unto death, most commentators understand apostasy is a sin unto death as per 1 Jn 5:

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." (1 Jn 5:16)

Benson Commentary from Bible Hub:

"1 John 5:16-17. If any man, &c. — As if he had said, Yea, he hears us not only for ourselves, but others also; see his brother — That is, any child of man; sin a sin which is not unto death — That is, any sin but that which is marked out in the awful words of our Lord Jesus Christ as unpardonable, namely, the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, of which see on Matthew 12:31; Mark 3:29.

Or, which may rather be intended, the sin of total apostacy from both the power and form of godliness; he shall ask, and God shall give him life — Repentance unto life, and, in consequence thereof, pardon and salvation for that sinner. There is a sin unto death; I do not say that he shall pray for it — That is, let him not pray for it. A sin unto death may likewise mean one which God has determined to punish with temporal death. All unrighteousness is sin — Every deviation from perfect holiness is sin; but all sin is not unpardonable, nor does God determine to punish every sin with temporal death."

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
5:13-17 "Upon all this evidence, it is but right that we believe on the name of the Son of God. Believers have eternal life in the covenant of the gospel. Then let us thankfully receive the record of Scripture. Always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that our labour is not in vain in the Lord. The Lord Christ invites us to come to him in all circumstances, with our supplications and requests, notwithstanding the sin that besets us. Our prayers must always be offered in submission to the will of God. In some things they are speedily answered; in others they are granted in the best manner, though not as requested. We ought to pray for others, as well as for ourselves.

There are sins that war against spiritual life in the soul, and the life above. We cannot pray that the sins of the impenitent and unbelieving should, while they are such, be forgiven them; or that mercy, which supposes the forgiveness of sins, should be granted to them, while they wilfully continue such. But we may pray for their repentance, for their being enriched with faith in Christ, and thereupon for all other saving mercies. We should pray for others, as well as for ourselves, beseeching the Lord to pardon and recover the fallen, as well as to relieve the tempted and afflicted. And let us be truly thankful that no sin, of which any one truly repents, is unto death."

That last part is the key. If an atheist repents and accepts Christ as Lord and Savior, he will be saved. But if not, he can't be.

Than, no point to preach the gospel to non believer, they not going to hear

if it is impossible. then NO one can be saved.

the gift is life.

If youhave not recieved the gift. your still dead.

What route do you surmise, that I am proceeding down?

I never said that love saves.

Love is the evidence, the outward marker, that someone is a Christian.

Agape love towards others is not the reason for our salvation.

We are only ever saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Genuine love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and is not resident within the flesh of man.