The Faith OF Christ...

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TDidymas

TDidymas

Active member
#41
Oct 27, 2021
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#41
ForestGreenCook said:
This is just another attempt of trying to change the wording of the scriptures to give themselves credit for their eternal salvation, instead of giving God the credit.
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Your argument is a straw man, since I have given the credit for our salvation to God on numerous occasions. God grants us the faith to believe, and He is the one who saves us. But the scripture is clear in Eph. 2:8: by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

So then, salvation is the gift of God, which requires both grace and faith to also be gifts of God. We received it all from Him, so He gets the credit 100%. It does not negate the fact that faith (yes, enduring faith) is part of the package, and is the thing by which we are justified in God's sight (Rom. 5:1). God is the one who saves us, and yet it clearly declares that we are justified BY faith, meaning our faith. If you think this wrong, then you are at odds with the scripture.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#42
Jul 8, 2018
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#42
TDidymas said:
No, it doesn't mean what you're saying. You're taking the word out of its context and making it mean something the author didn't mean. We know the author meant faith IN Jesus, because he said it in the very next phrase in Gal. 2:16. Here is the quote in the KJV:
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Do you notice that he is equating "the faith of Jesus Christ" with "we have believed in Jesus Christ"? So the only viable interpretation of "the faith of Jesus Christ" is the act of becoming a Christian, and THE FAITH associated with it. There are 42 references in the NT in which "the faith" is used, and it means the set of teachings in which a person who believes it has become a Christian. This is the NT context of that terminology, and is the context of the 2 refs in question (Gal. 2:16 and Phil. 2:9).
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Yes, we believe in the fact that Jesus's faith justified us.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#43
Jul 8, 2018
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#43
TDidymas said:
Your argument is a straw man, since I have given the credit for our salvation to God on numerous occasions. God grants us the faith to believe, and He is the one who saves us. But the scripture is clear in Eph. 2:8: by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

So then, salvation is the gift of God, which requires both grace and faith to also be gifts of God. We received it all from Him, so He gets the credit 100%. It does not negate the fact that faith (yes, enduring faith) is part of the package, and is the thing by which we are justified in God's sight (Rom. 5:1). God is the one who saves us, and yet it clearly declares that we are justified BY faith, meaning our faith. If you think this wrong, then you are at odds with the scripture.
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Eph 2:8 - the "faith" used in this scripture, is Jesus's faith, not man's. "and that not of yourselves" reinforces it.

Rom 5:1 - This scripture harmonizes with Gal 2:16, if you do not change the wording of the scriptures.
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

Senior Member
#44
Nov 17, 2015
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#44
There's no way to correct the Kjv, the kjv alone had define "the faith of" as to "believe in". My faitn in Christ doenst mean, I work for it. It just placing your trust inthe finished works of Christ. God bless
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#45
Jun 30, 2015
24,793
13,425
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#45
ForestGreenCook said:
Eph 2:8 - the "faith" used in this scripture, is Jesus's faith, not man's. "and that not of yourselves" reinforces it.
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Actually, it doesn't, because neither the sentence structure nor the context permit that conclusion. Nowhere in the preceding 30 verses does "the faith of Christ" appear.

Let's see what chapter 1 does say:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
...
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
...
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

We who trusted in Christ, ye trusted, ye believed, your faith in the Lord Jesus, us who believe. Does that sound like "the faith of Christ", or the faith of humans in Christ?

Let's look again at chapter 2:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul is contrasting faith with works. Let's pause here to ask whose faith and works? Is Paul contrasting the faith of Jesus with the works of Jesus? Are we saved by Jesus' faith but not by Jesus' works? I hope you agree that whole question is silly.

ForestGreenCook said:
Rom 5:1 - This scripture harmonizes with Gal 2:16, if you do not change the wording of the scriptures.
Click to expand...
Let's see...
KJV
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Yes, they harmonize, but that harmonization does not support the idea that Jesus' faith is that which justifies.

-NIV
----Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

----Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

These harmonize perfectly.

-NASB
----Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

----Galatians 2:16 nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

As do these.

The newer versions harmonize far more clearly than the KJV.

Regarding your comment "if you do not change the wording of the scriptures", nobody changed them; they translated them differently. You would have to establish that the KJV is the original wording (good luck with that) before you can make the charge that anyone "changed" them.
 
TDidymas

TDidymas

Active member
#47
Oct 27, 2021
311
69
28
#47
ForestGreenCook said:
Eph 2:8 - the "faith" used in this scripture, is Jesus's faith, not man's. "and that not of yourselves" reinforces it.

Rom 5:1 - This scripture harmonizes with Gal 2:16, if you do not change the wording of the scriptures.
Click to expand...
So, what I see you saying is that when Paul wrote that we are justified by faith in Rom. 5, that he is talking about faith that Jesus exercises, and not us, correct?
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

Senior Member
#48
Nov 17, 2015
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#48
Hope this will all clear the nuances of the phrase "Faith of Christ". Prior KJV 1611 has the meaning of the sufferings or death, so that we are Justified by the death of Christ or the works of Christ on the cross thru believing in Him.

John Baret, An Alveary or Triple Dictionary, in English, Latin, and French (1574)

¶ a Martyr, suffering death for the faith of Christ our sauiour.Martyr, mártyris. Com. ge. & Martyrium, rij. Martirdome or such death.

NOTES

1. 159 (location: marginal note)
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#49
Jul 8, 2018
8,397
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#49
TDidymas said:
Your argument is a straw man, since I have given the credit for our salvation to God on numerous occasions. God grants us the faith to believe, and He is the one who saves us. But the scripture is clear in Eph. 2:8: by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

So then, salvation is the gift of God, which requires both grace and faith to also be gifts of God. We received it all from Him, so He gets the credit 100%. It does not negate the fact that faith (yes, enduring faith) is part of the package, and is the thing by which we are justified in God's sight (Rom. 5:1). God is the one who saves us, and yet it clearly declares that we are justified BY faith, meaning our faith. If you think this wrong, then you are at odds with the scripture.
Click to expand...
I am afraid that You are the one that is at odds with the scriptures. Your faith, nor any other thing about you, and me included, will make us just. Jesus's faithfulness in going to the cross is the ONLY thing that makes us just before God.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#50
Jul 8, 2018
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#50
fredoheaven said:
There's no way to correct the Kjv, the kjv alone had define "the faith of" as to "believe in". My faitn in Christ doenst mean, I work for it. It just placing your trust inthe finished works of Christ. God bless
Click to expand...
The finished work of Christ was finished, whether you put your trust in it or not. Jesus was a sacrifice to God, for God's acceptance, not to man for man's acceptance. Jesus died for all of those that God gave to him, amd he said that he would lose none of them, but raise them up at the last day. That's why he said "it is finished" and that there would be no more sacrifice for sins. Their sins are as far away as the east is from the west. Their eternal inheritance is secured. Nothing that they do in their lifetime will contribute anything to their eternal security.. My righteousness, and yours also, are as filthy faggs. the only righteousness that we have is the imputed righteousness of Christ, and that is given when we are born again.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#51
Jul 8, 2018
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#51
Dino246 said:
Actually, it doesn't, because neither the sentence structure nor the context permit that conclusion. Nowhere in the preceding 30 verses does "the faith of Christ" appear.

Let's see what chapter 1 does say:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
...
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
...
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

We who trusted in Christ, ye trusted, ye believed, your faith in the Lord Jesus, us who believe. Does that sound like "the faith of Christ", or the faith of humans in Christ?

Let's look again at chapter 2:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul is contrasting faith with works. Let's pause here to ask whose faith and works? Is Paul contrasting the faith of Jesus with the works of Jesus? Are we saved by Jesus' faith but not by Jesus' works? I hope you agree that whole question is silly.


Let's see...
KJV
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Yes, they harmonize, but that harmonization does not support the idea that Jesus' faith is that which justifies.

-NIV
----Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

----Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

These harmonize perfectly.

-NASB
----Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

----Galatians 2:16 nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

As do these.

The newer versions harmonize far more clearly than the KJV.

Regarding your comment "if you do not change the wording of the scriptures", nobody changed them; they translated them differently. You would have to establish that the KJV is the original wording (good luck with that) before you can make the charge that anyone "changed" them.
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Go ahead and keep your belief that YOUR faith makes you just before God. believing your faith is responsible for your justification, takes the credit away from God and gives it to man. The only spiritual faith that you have, is the faith that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, that was given in the new birth. Before you were born again, your faith was as filthy rags..
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#52
Jul 8, 2018
8,397
1,204
113
#52
Dino246 said:
Actually, it doesn't, because neither the sentence structure nor the context permit that conclusion. Nowhere in the preceding 30 verses does "the faith of Christ" appear.

Let's see what chapter 1 does say:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
...
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
...
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

We who trusted in Christ, ye trusted, ye believed, your faith in the Lord Jesus, us who believe. Does that sound like "the faith of Christ", or the faith of humans in Christ?

Let's look again at chapter 2:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul is contrasting faith with works. Let's pause here to ask whose faith and works? Is Paul contrasting the faith of Jesus with the works of Jesus? Are we saved by Jesus' faith but not by Jesus' works? I hope you agree that whole question is silly.


Let's see...
KJV
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Yes, they harmonize, but that harmonization does not support the idea that Jesus' faith is that which justifies.

-NIV
----Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

----Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

These harmonize perfectly.

-NASB
----Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

----Galatians 2:16 nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

As do these.

The newer versions harmonize far more clearly than the KJV.

Regarding your comment "if you do not change the wording of the scriptures", nobody changed them; they translated them differently. You would have to establish that the KJV is the original wording (good luck with that) before you can make the charge that anyone "changed" them.
Click to expand...
All of the "you's, us's, we's, ye's" in Eph chapter 1 are; the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus. They have no references to the un-regenerant. No matter how hard you try to twist the scriptures to make the un-regenerant able to eternally save himself, void of God's sovereign grace, it can not be done with the harmony of the scriptures. He must be born spiritually before he can discern spiritual things.
 
Blade

Blade

Well-known member
#53
Nov 19, 2019
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#53
Hmm looking at 27 translations 4 use "of Christ" 23 use "in Christ". One org greek translation uses "in". Now I have another greek translation but they use "OF". I think as some did here more depth into this helps. Missing how Paul used "justified" three times...well using it 3 times.. I don't know. In my eyes.. its as if some are reading something into this that is not there. Some ate with Jews not gentiles, some wanted to be righteous by their works. One puts you back under the curse (has to deal with the law). The short is its faith in Christ.. its what He did and God sees us through what Christ has already done. God is faithful to what Christ has done.

Lets treat others like we would like to be treated.. hmm maybe treat others as if we were talking to Christ.. no matter how they talk to us :)
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#56
Jul 8, 2018
8,397
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#56
fredoheaven said:
Hope this will all clear the nuances of the phrase "Faith of Christ". Prior KJV 1611 has the meaning of the sufferings or death, so that we are Justified by the death of Christ or the works of Christ on the cross thru believing in Him.

John Baret, An Alveary or Triple Dictionary, in English, Latin, and French (1574)

¶ a Martyr, suffering death for the faith of Christ our sauiour.Martyr, mártyris. Com. ge. & Martyrium, rij. Martirdome or such death.

NOTES

1. 159 (location: marginal note)
Click to expand...
We believe in the fact that Christ justified us. yes.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#57
Jul 8, 2018
8,397
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#57
fredoheaven said:
There's no way to correct the Kjv, the kjv alone had define "the faith of" as to "believe in". My faitn in Christ doenst mean, I work for it. It just placing your trust inthe finished works of Christ. God bless
Click to expand...
If you are one of the ones that Jesus died for on the cross, Jesus's work is finished as far as saving you eternally, no matter whether you "place your faith in his finished" work or not.
 
TDidymas

TDidymas

Active member
#58
Oct 27, 2021
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#58
ForestGreenCook said:
I am afraid that You are the one that is at odds with the scriptures. Your faith, nor any other thing about you, and me included, will make us just. Jesus's faithfulness in going to the cross is the ONLY thing that makes us just before God.
Click to expand...
You are reading into what I wrote some straw man, just I see you doing the scripture. Nowhere did I imply that faith MAKES a person just. God makes a person just. Yet, faith is the requirement by which He does so:

"Without faith it is impossible to please God, for anyone coming to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." Heb. 11:6, which is amidst the argument that one must believe in Christ to be saved. "We are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the saving of the soul" (Heb. 10:39) Notice he says "who have faith". And it is in context of salvation. Anyone who does not have faith in Christ does not have a leg to stand on, regarding any assurance of salvation.

But I quote James: "If someone says he has faith, but has no works, can that faith save him?"
Do you think James is wrong here, that he is somehow making faith the saving action? Is this what you think?
 
TDidymas

TDidymas

Active member
#59
Oct 27, 2021
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#59
ForestGreenCook said:
Is "nonsense" the same as "foolishness" in 1 Cor 2:14?
Click to expand...
I'd say it's pretty close, because you're nit-picking at words without considering the context in which those words are written.
 
TDidymas

TDidymas

Active member
#60
Oct 27, 2021
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#60
ForestGreenCook said:
That is right.
Click to expand...
Then I'd say your faith is not complete. Rom. 5:1 says, "Having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." To show that it is OUR faith he is talking about, in the previous chapter he argues for faith in Christ by quoting Old Testament scripture in Genesis 15, saying
"ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD," and "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. " (In the NASB, OT quotes are in all caps).

Here proves beyond any doubt that Paul was talking about OUR faith in Christ, and this is his definition of the term "faith" in Rom. 5:1.
"Abraham believed God" - this is Abraham's faith in God. To apply this, the direction of Biblical faith is FROM us TO God. It is WE trusting God for the spiritual gifts He gives, including: the Holy Spirit, eternal life, wisdom, deliverance from sin, spiritual rebirth, and all that comes with the salvation of God.

So if having faith is a burden to you, then you should be asking God to increase your faith in Him like the disciples asked of Jesus. I once had the same experience in my Christian life many years ago. This in fact may be a universal experience, because of many warnings about loss of faith, in addition to many encouragements (and commands) to have faith in God, written in the NT.

Heb. 10:39 "But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." This is both a warning and an encouragement to believe in Christ. "Shrink back" is in the context of having faith in Christ, and is a warning of destruction if our faith fails (that is, we resort to apostasy, as some Jews and some Galatians were doing). "Have faith" means this is our faith being directed toward Christ.

Finally, if you can see that the faith needed to be justified is a gift from God to you (Eph. 2:8), then it shouldn't be a burden to trust in Christ for all that is needed to save you. And if you wonder if you can hold that up in hard times, hear what Peter says in 1 Pet. 1:5: "we are kept by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Therefore, we trust God to keep us full of faith in Him.
 
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