The Faith OF Christ...

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,401
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#61
All of the "you's, us's, we's, ye's" in Eph chapter 1 are; the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus. They have no references to the un-regenerant. No matter how hard you try to twist the scriptures to make the un-regenerant able to eternally save himself, void of God's sovereign grace, it can not be done with the harmony of the scriptures. He must be born spiritually before he can discern spiritual things.
Did I say anything about the unregenerate? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,108
960
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#62
If you are one of the ones that Jesus died for on the cross, Jesus's work is finished as far as saving you eternally, no matter whether you "place your faith in his finished" work or not.
You are pushing too much in Calvinism, when KJb is not. The Kjb translators did just fine, you just wrongly interpreting it.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
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#63
You are reading into what I wrote some straw man, just I see you doing the scripture. Nowhere did I imply that faith MAKES a person just. God makes a person just. Yet, faith is the requirement by which He does so:

"Without faith it is impossible to please God, for anyone coming to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." Heb. 11:6, which is amidst the argument that one must believe in Christ to be saved. "We are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the saving of the soul" (Heb. 10:39) Notice he says "who have faith". And it is in context of salvation. Anyone who does not have faith in Christ does not have a leg to stand on, regarding any assurance of salvation.

But I quote James: "If someone says he has faith, but has no works, can that faith save him?"
Do you think James is wrong here, that he is somehow making faith the saving action? Is this what you think?
If you consider the Greek interpretation of "salvation, save, saved" it means "a deliverance, deliver, delivered".

Before being quickened to the new spiritual life, we only have faith in mankind, and his accomplishments. 1 Cor 2:14. After we have been quickened by God's sovereign grace, without any action on man's part, considering he is spiritually dead. Eph 2:1-5.

Once a person has been delivered (saved) from his sins, by Jesus's death on the cross, after he has been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Eph 2:1-5. (spiritual faith being a fruit of the Holy Spirit Gal 5:22) and does not do spiritual works, his spiritual faith will not deliver (save) him from the chastening of God. James chapter 2 has reference to spiritual faith, not un-regenerant man's faith. 1 Cor 2:14).
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
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#64
Did I say anything about the unregenerate? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
By your determination not to give credit that Jesus's faith, in Gal 2:16, justified you, and claiming that it is your faith that makes you just when in actuality, your faith is as filthy rags, without the imputed righteousness of Christ. So, why don't you just give Jesus all of the credit for making you just, instead of taking credit for yourself? To believe in the fact that Jesus's faith justified us is the right answer.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
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#65
You are pushing too much in Calvinism, when KJb is not. The Kjb translators did just fine, you just wrongly interpreting it.
Jesus died for the sins 0f all of those that the Father gave him, as an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man, for man's acceptance, saying "it is finished and there would be no more sacrifice for sins, also stating that he would not lose any, but raise them up at the last day".
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,108
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#66
Jesus died for the sins 0f all of those that the Father gave him, as an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man, for man's acceptance, saying "it is finished and there would be no more sacrifice for sins, also stating that he would not lose any, but raise them up at the last day".
This is half baked truth. I agree on some parts of your statement that "it is finished and there would be no more sacrifice for sins..." But i disagree with your opening statement. I think you have no verse to backed up your claim. Interestingly, "the faith of Christ" his sufferings, martyrdom (death on the cross) provides salvation to whosever believeth that includes you and me and to all who would believe.
 

TDidymas

Active member
Oct 27, 2021
311
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#67
If you consider the Greek interpretation of "salvation, save, saved" it means "a deliverance, deliver, delivered".

Before being quickened to the new spiritual life, we only have faith in mankind, and his accomplishments. 1 Cor 2:14. After we have been quickened by God's sovereign grace, without any action on man's part, considering he is spiritually dead. Eph 2:1-5.

Once a person has been delivered (saved) from his sins, by Jesus's death on the cross, after he has been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Eph 2:1-5. (spiritual faith being a fruit of the Holy Spirit Gal 5:22) and does not do spiritual works, his spiritual faith will not deliver (save) him from the chastening of God. James chapter 2 has reference to spiritual faith, not un-regenerant man's faith. 1 Cor 2:14).
No, I disagree with your last statement. James ch. 2 is clearly talking about what kind of faith that is the justification kind. The kind of faith that produces the fruit of the Spirit is the kind that brings God's justification, this is clear from the texts of Paul and James. James says that a claimed faith in Christ that does not result in real love for God's people is not the kind of faith that results in justification. This is clear when the whole context of James is considered. Further, it is talking about our faith, the faith we have, not a faith that Jesus has.

But it begs a question, because you use the phrase "spiritual faith." Do you think that spiritual faith is only possessed by Christ and is not a faith that we have? I'm seeing more context of what you're saying than merely your responses to me. I saw that you said "If you are one of the ones that Jesus died for on the cross, Jesus's work is finished as far as saving you eternally, no matter whether you 'place your faith in his finished' work or not. " Even this begs a question, do you think that if a person is one of the ones Jesus died for, then that person is saved no matter if they believe in Christ or not?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,401
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#68
By your determination not to give credit that Jesus's faith, in Gal 2:16, justified you, and claiming that it is your faith that makes you just when in actuality, your faith is as filthy rags, without the imputed righteousness of Christ. So, why don't you just give Jesus all of the credit for making you just, instead of taking credit for yourself? To believe in the fact that Jesus's faith justified us is the right answer.
Again, you attempt to put words in my mouth. I see no point in trying to have a discussion with someone who refuses to be respectful. I will only tell you repeatedly that you are wrong.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#69
Precious friends, should most of us place More EMPHASIS on ourSELF rather than

The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And HIS Faithfulness?:
"
...A Precious Blessing TooFew Believers Appreciate
Yes, Christ is ever faithful to those who place their faith in Him. The just shall live by faith....

Hebrews 10:38

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#70
This is half baked truth. I agree on some parts of your statement that "it is finished and there would be no more sacrifice for sins..." But i disagree with your opening statement. I think you have no verse to backed up your claim. Interestingly, "the faith of Christ" his sufferings, martyrdom (death on the cross) provides salvation to whosever believeth that includes you and me and to all who would believe.
John 6:37-40, John 10:27-29, John 17:2, Acts 11:48.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#71
Again, you attempt to put words in my mouth. I see no point in trying to have a discussion with someone who refuses to be respectful. I will only tell you repeatedly that you are wrong.
I am sorry that you think that I am disrespectful, but when I see anyone claiming credit for themselves for something that God has done for them, I feel that it is my duty to convince them that God gets ALL OF THE CREDIT.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#73
do you think that if a person is one of the ones Jesus died for, then that person is saved no matter if they believe in Christ or n
I believe that Eph 2:1-5 teaches that, when one of those that Jesus died for, is born again, they are "spiritually dead" (1 Cor 2:14), and cannot respond in any way to their rebirth. Being born again to a new spiritual life is only by God's sovereign grace, without the help of man.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#74
Yes, Christ is ever faithful to those who place their faith in Him. The just shall live by faith....

Hebrews 10:38

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”
Do you fully understand the meaning of "THE JUST"? Just, according to Greek translation means "innocent, holy". The just, who place their faith in him, are those that have already been born again, who's faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit given in the new birth, and not the un-regenerant person's faith.
 

TDidymas

Active member
Oct 27, 2021
311
69
28
#75
I think that you may have that backwards. Our faith does not produce the Spirit. The Holy Spirit produces spiritual faith.
I again ask: When the apostle James wrote "if someone says he has faith, but has no works, can that faith save him?"
Do you believe James is making faith the saving action or saving source?

Your silence on this question leads me to believe you do think James is saying that, because you use exactly the same logic on me. When I wrote "The kind of faith that produces the fruit of the Spirit," you responded: "Our faith does not produce the Spirit."

Therefore, I take it that when you read "can that faith save him" in James, you think he is saying that faith is the thing that saves. If you deny this, then you are not consistent in how you read things. At the very least, when you read what I write, you're not trying to understand what you're reading, but instead you are looking for something wrong, and projecting it on what I write. Such a practice accompanies reading things into scripture that is not originally intended.

But I'll still hand you the answer on a silver platter. "the kind of faith that produces the fruit of the Spirit" means this:
Faith in Jesus Christ accompanies the indwelling Spirit, which causes a person to pay close attention to the words of Jesus, thereby leading him abiding in Christ, resulting in the Spirit producing fruit in that person's life and ministry.

So I admit that I created a shortcut to a point, exactly as James did in his epistle. But now that you have nitpicked at what I wrote in this post, will you consider the whole thing carefully?
 

TDidymas

Active member
Oct 27, 2021
311
69
28
#76
I believe that Eph 2:1-5 teaches that, when one of those that Jesus died for, is born again, they are "spiritually dead" (1 Cor 2:14), and cannot respond in any way to their rebirth. Being born again to a new spiritual life is only by God's sovereign grace, without the help of man.
Can you explain how you think one born again is spiritually dead when Eph. 2:5 clearly says He made us alive? Are you saying that a person born again is still spiritually dead? How exactly are you coming to that conclusion?
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#77
John 6:37-40, John 10:27-29, John 17:2, Acts 11:48.
Heres your opening statement "Jesus died for the sins of all of those that the Father gave him..." and I challenge your claim to provide scripture reference. Here's my comment, John 6: 37-40, here in this passage has no relationship over Christ death, "the faith of Christ". This is about the raising up again at the last day of those who are saved. While John 10:27-29 has nothing to do with the faith of Christ, his martyrdom or such death on the cross. John 17:2 is yet another unrelated to your statements" Christ died for all those that the Father gave him" and Acts 11:48 is not found in the bible if i am not mistaken.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,401
13,746
113
#78
I am sorry that you think that I am disrespectful, but when I see anyone claiming credit for themselves for something that God has done for them, I feel that it is my duty to convince them that God gets ALL OF THE CREDIT.
Did I claim credit for anything? No. Maybe you should stop reading what isn’t written.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,401
13,746
113
#79
I think that you may have that backwards. Our faith does not produce the Spirit. The Holy Spirit produces spiritual faith.
Given that faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, I have a question for you:

In whom does the Holy Spirit produce faith?

If in Jesus, then your position is valid.

If in the believer then my position is valid, and you have been arguing against the truth.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
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#80
Precious friends, should most of us place More EMPHASIS on ourSELF rather than

The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And HIS Faithfulness?:​

"
...A Precious Blessing Too​
Few Believers Appreciate​

It is amazing that so few of God’s people understand the simple significance
of one of the most Precious phrases in the Pauline epistles: “The Faith Of Christ.”
The apostle uses this phrase no less than seven times in his letters to the saints,
yet the vast majority of believers today fail utterly to understand, yea, even
misunderstand its wonderful meaning.

As the emphasis in evangelism today is placed upon man rather than upon God,
so has the Truth About 'faith in Christ' been given the Precedence over the Truth
about “The Faith Of Christ,” until It has all but crowded it out.

Two Aspects Of 'faith'...Objective faith...Subjective faith..."The Promise"...

...The FAITH OF Christ...​

...Righteousness...Access...The christian life...

...Our “faith” would be vain were it not for
“The Faith [Fidelity] of the SON of God.”...
"
(CR Stam)

FULL study:
The Faith OF Christ

View attachment 241303

"...I must decrease, HE Must Increase..." (John baptizer)

GRACE And Peace...

While I agree with your point being made, I do believe a clarification is needed about the faith of Christ.

Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man. As God (The second person of the Godhead) he had no faith as we think of it. God cannot have faith in God. Just as God cannot pray to God. As man, he could and did have faith in the promises of God. As man He could pray to the Father, as He did in John 17. While Jesus Christ was one, His Holy nature and Perfect Human nature were separate.

In studying the koine Greek for many decades, I do believe that several translations of the verses do not capture the intended message of the writer. Here is one example:

Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;

This is the verse as it is generally translated. However, the Greek will allow another translation, which I believe is closer to the Truth. Note the changes marked in red:

Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;

After all, is not the righteousness of God come through the faithful Person and Work of Jesus Christ? Additionally, if we except the long held translation of this verse it creates a redundancy. Mainly: Faith in Jesus Christ is the same thing as "them that believe". In the corrected translation, the subject of God's righteousness is to: "them that believe" and the object of their belief is: "Jesus Christ".

Just a thought and a little grammar.