And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

FreeGrace2 said:
None of these verses mentions the soul. They refer to physical death.
And I addressed that directly. The word "soul" is frequently used for the "person". Even today, military mass casualty disaster exercises use the word "soul" for how many people are in the disaster. It's referred to as the sob, meaning "souls on board". Means people.

So your long list of verses are about the death of people, not their disembodied souls.

No, you've got that cornered covered rather well.

When their resurrected bodies will DIE AGAIN. Right.

Because the bodies of the righteous won't be destroyed. The bodies will be glorified.

Many righteous have been "put to death" so that's a no brainer. See previous reply regarding destruction of the righteous.

Lazy person. Just quote the verse if you have a point.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

How many times do you need reminding? The verse says "who CAN destroy both soul and body".

It DOESN'T say "will destroy". That would be a point for you. I don't doub that God is able to evaporate souls. But His Word does NOT say that He does.

Not presumption. Just connecting dots. One has to presume the other way to claim they won't be.

Matt 25:46 speaks of eternal punishment. In order for a punishment to be inflicted, one MUST BE conscious of it.

Neither are anyone's. When Matt 25:46 is combined with Rev 20:10, there is harmony between the two.

Only the very next 5 verses, that's all. And, of course, there is Matt 25:46.

There it is. You’re quoting non-Biblical sources again.

This is basic logic, you know, God reaches us in a way we can understand. The righteous die too so there isn’t a reason to say the unrighteous will be destroyed unless it is specific to them. That means the destruction they’ll face, taking into account many verses, is death of the body and soul.

Good job FreeGrace2 this quote by you is accurate.


It’s more nuanced than that. Both righteous and unrighteousness can experience a bodily death, but only the unrighteous can be sentenced to soul death.


“lazy person” how sad and pathetic. What makes you think I am lazy for giving you more than one extra mile?

Now let me assign you homework: does God make idle threats? If He says He can do something will He do it?

I would say that in order to understand the Book of Revelation, the revelation of Jesus IS the revelation of the nature of God.

As well, correcting interpretating the Olivet Discourse starting with "this generation" and audience relavance is also the only way to understand the Book of Revelation.

Second death is the "death of death" and is not being "annihilated" non-existence, a concept foreign to both OT and the NT.

Perish/Destroy refer to physical destruction not eternal, I have yet to read one place where it is eternal spiritual destruction, do you have one?

Scholars note the same thing of 1st Century Palestine.

Matt 10:28 soul
psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Definition: breath, the soul
Usage: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

See? From a Greek lexicon.

Presumption. Since the saved will ALWAYS have their bodies, and the LOF is called the "second death", referring to their physical body, it makes sense to describe the unbeliever only as destroyed. Believers won't be destroyed in any way.

If you really had a verse that mentions "soul death", or better, "body AND soul death", you would have a point.

No.

Not necessarily. Why do you continue to presume so much.

1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Do all people get saved and come to a knowledge of the truth? No. But it is God's WILL that all people will.

theló: to will, wish
Original Word: θέλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: theló
Phonetic Spelling: ( eth-el'-o,)
Definition: to will, wish
Usage: I will, wish, desire, am willing, intend, design.

God doesn't always do everything He can do, just because He can.

You just can't get around Matt 25:46 with Rev 20:10-15.

The punishment is eternal, so the soul is conscious for eternity.

John 3:16, which I’m sure you’ve read, only makes sense if the counter offer is not eternal life. We know eternal life is eternal life of the body, soul, and spirit, so the counter offer must be that the body, soul, and spirit perishes. It’ll be destroyed. This is the literal plain text interpretation of of this verse.

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And there are more verses to support etebal destruction.

The military and news media reference those souls as having died or lost. We can go into examples of that if you desire. I’m quite eager to bolster my point.


The second death verses don’t specifically say that the second death only applies to the body, however there are verses that say the wages of sin is death. Why would anyone exclude soul death from the facts when the Bible supports it?


That sounds like you want to discuss semantics.


I meant when did God ever make an idle threat. If God says He can destroy something, when did He not destroy it?

there is scripture to support both ideas

if one perceives this

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9

that’s going to support and shape thinking about the subject which the. You add this

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31, 34, 41, 46‬ ‭

See it’s a matter of what we’ve heard in scripture that determines what the Bible teaches some people see it like the punishment is everlasting the torment goes on they never find rest

“he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,”

to say “ the Bible doesn’t teach it “ should be said “ I myself don’t perceive the Bible to say it “ but honestly there are several verses that can support your view and others who believe the opposite

it’s a matter of how we hear the verses
We can say “ it says thy y have no rest for one day and one night “ but that’s not what it says . And we can say “ it says they have no rest eternally for all days and nights “ but that’s not what it says

two people can read the same verses d they are actually perceiving what it says differently. Verses like that one from revelation are there and like Matthew 25 that’s there it’s a matter of how the scriptire shapes our thinking about a given subject

we know for sure this part

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So we know that Satan and his servants are going to be tormented forever me ever in the lake of fire

the only question is do the people cast in with him cease to exist ? Or do they inherit his lot of eternal torment ?

it never really says to be honest but there’s a lot of verses to suggest either they are finally eventually destroyed and also they never cease or find rest day or night

it says this of Satan and his minions

the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

And says this of the people who serve him

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


there’s scriptural support leading both ways I just don’t think any of us actually know for sure but we all have strong ideas based on scripture

Having been in the AF for 27 years, I assure you that the use of "souls" meant "persons", just as a Greek lexicon shows as well.

Except you don't have anything with which to bolster.

When you enter eternity, will you be disappointed to learn that unbelievers WILL experience torment for ever?

Your opinion aside, the most obvious meaning of "second death" would be the second time the unbeliever's resurrected body will experience a death.

Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

This shows 1,000 years between the resurrection of believers and resurrection of unbelievers.

"If you really had a verse that mentions "soul death", or better, "body AND soul death", you would have a point."
[QUOTE[That sounds like you want to discuss semantics.[/QUOTE]
No, for clarity. I've shown you from a lexicon that psuche is used to mean "a person" an "individual".

So none of your verses that simply refer to the destruction of the soul are clear enough to know the immaterial soul is meant.

But, if there was a verse where both body and soul are mentioned as being destroyed then you would have a great point.

You can't apply that to every single verse. You are reaching for straws here.

I showed you an example from 1 Tim 2 about God's will, yet it won't come to pass. So, there's that.

yep, hell is forever, some believe danger doctrine that teach hell not for human
that is wrong and danger

i life in the motel for a good periods of time, I meet people that use drug
I ask them, don’t you afraid of hell?
they said, no, I am in hell now
some are kill themselves, I think the devil successfully lie to them that there is no hell
I am in hell know, to escape from hell let kill ourselves

it is clear in the Bible there is hell for unbeliever

“it is clear in the Bible there is hell for unbeliever”

I agree with that , but would add also “believers “ that don’t repent and continue serving sin which is the Will of the devil

But this part I’m not thinking is correct I don’t know for sure but it seems hell isn’t forever because the people that have died and end up in hell come out of hell and appear for eternal
Judgement

“yep, hell is forever,”

we know and agree it’s a place for some of the wicked dead if they say I believe or not but salvstion is from the final judgement the lake of fire that’s where the gospel delivers people after they come out of hell they da be the lake of fire some of them are saved or appear to be from being cast into e lake of fire

“and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:

and they were judged every man according to their works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13‬ ‭

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so they lived and died and were in hell , came out of hell at the last judgement and the last judgement says home not found written in the book of life at that point after all the dead have appeared before Gods throne the. The boom of life saves some who are written In it and others just like hell itself is cast into the lake of fire and the. Immediately we hear this that John now saw emerging after all the terrible visions

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1, 3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not sure I’ve said several times but it may be that God has plan for an eternal world seperate completely from any pain or suffering of any kind and maybe hell
Is a place to hold spirits until the judgement of those who never accepted Christ and repented so they can be judged based on thier works

and some may repent and confess I believe from the heart later who really
Knows but we all think we know for sure Gods ways are pretty deep and far and wide and high and long and we’re pretty basic and little in comparison

I know for sure he’s got a plan that is perfect and good and hope to be part of the blessing part of it and not the part that ends up on the lake of fire whatever the details are it’s not a good place it’s infact void of all that is good

I'll give that a thumbs up on the account that you said you served the US military. I was in the Navy myself, serving side-by-side with the Air Force; however, let's about face back to the topic at hand since your point about being in the military is irrelevant to the topic we are discussing. Thank you for your service by the way.

Without being exhaustive, here is one such news article that says souls were lost at sea:

A mayday call, a dash across the Mediterranean … and 130 souls lost at sea

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...sh-across-the-ocean-and-130-souls-lost-at-sea


I don't believe that will happen, but if it does I'll quote over two dozen verses and ask why death didn't mean death, why destroy didn't mean destroy, and how unrighteous people are still alive when Jesus said that only the righteous will have eternal life.

What will you say?

Can you prove all unsaved people's soul didn't get destroyed in hell? Don't quote specific groups like those who were in the great flood in the days of Noah or the devil, beast, and false prophet. Show that literally all unbelievers go to hell and suffer for eternity.

Not irrelevant. It was a real world example of how the word "soul" is used today, even as it was used in ancient times.

You are welcome. Enjoyed every minute of it.

See? Another example of using "souls" to mean "people".

First, death DOES mean death. But you must be able to discern which kind of death is being referred to. There are about 6 different types of death in the Bible, including sexual death.

Second, destroy does mean destroy, but one must understand WHAT is being destroyed.

Third, unsaved people (the unsaved) will have their souls joined back to their bodies in a resurrection for the GWT judgment, only to be cast into the LOF where their physical body gets to die all over again.

I think the problem is that you aren't differentiating between the soul after death, which is conscious, and the body, which is dead, until the resurrection.

There have been numerous accounts of patients in surgery who reported accurately about what all the docs, nurses, techs were saying during the operation while they were under general anesthesia. They described floating above the op table, watching the whole proceeding. When the op was over, the patient came to, and reported all that they had heard and seen.

There is no way to explain such a thing other than they had an out of body experience. It was their conscious soul that was floating around, seeing and hearing. There have been enough of these reports that it is impossible to just discount them all.

My view comes from the fact that Matt 25:46 says those on Jesus' left side will experience eternal punishment. Who is in that crowd? I would say ALL unbelievers. And Rev 20:11-15 shows that all unbelievers will be at the GWT judgment.

I don't see a need to separate out groups of unbelievers, regardless of when they were in history. There are only 2 kinds of people. Saved and unsaved. Matt 25 makes that clear. As does Acts 24:15. A resurrection for ALL the saved and a resurrection for all the unsaved.

I just did. What did I miss, from your perspective?

To my knowledge, we only have time to decide while we physically life, wether accept Christ or not, not after die
if we do have opportunity to decide after die, every body who experience die will accept they know how terrible unbeliever end up

You act like all of the points I just proved to you using Bible verses don’t exist. If you disagree with the Bible then say so. Stubbornly holding on to being correct in the face insurmountable proof to the contrary isn’t a valid defense.

In any moderated debate your microphone would have been turned off and you’d have been asked to leave by now.

You’ve lost. Give it up

Sorry, this made me laugh. It's the basis of the entire Republican platform.

As you were...

I explained that you don't make discernment between the various ways the Bible uses "dead". I don't see your points as proof.

I don't disagree with the Bible. I disagee with your take. And I've explained myself over and over.

I don't see your case as having any insurmountable proof.

Your opinion here is irrelevant.

I have Matt 25:46 and Rom 20:10-15 on my side. I don't feel a bit threatened. And I've told you what you would need to have a point, or proof for your view. But you haven't produced any such proof.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I think the biggest hurdle for you is defending your claim that a soul who no longer exists can be punished. That's what really stretches your theory very thin.

It simply isn't possible to punish a soul that has ceased to exist. It's just not there. There is nothing to punish.

But go ahead and think you can punish a non-entity.