Ephesians 4:11-16

I hope you're not implying by that that prophets no longer exist or are no longer relevant today. There are many things that happen in this world that we don't witness or know, but those things still happen, are real, are factual, are relevant. If you asked the religious leaders of the NT if Jesus was the Messiah or if His apostles were indeed apostles, they would answer no to both of those. Yet, they saw both Jesus and His apostles. So, it's not a good idea to wait to see something before believing. Instead, faith is about believing what God says, not about seeing or experiencing it.

A lot of things are out of sync and out of wack in the modern churches. Yes, there are many examples that are relevant for the modern christian. One of them is that God's people (Israel) usually had their backs turned on God and usually rejected His prophets. This is partly written for us to realize that today, God's people usually have their back turned on God and usually reject His prophets. If pridefulness wasn't a mainstay of life, the facts would have been easy to recognize and acknowledge.

I have no idea what you're on about.
If you know of a prophet, I would like to read or listen or watch a video or what ever.

Correct.

I live in the US. In 2012, Jesus began to tell me that I need to be connected with believers who are apostolic and that I need a mentor who is apostolic. It's now 2022 and I don't know how or where to find such people. Everyone says the right words, but the doing is missing.

What country are you in, and do you know any apostolic people, mentors, spiritual fathers in the US I can maybe connect with?

Like most things in life, most people don't realize why God would want apostles and prophets in the churches. Hardness of heart (lack of understanding) and wrong worldviews (a veil over the eyes) prevents them from making sense of things that in fact make sense. In the US, pride or arrogance or ego (whatever one may call the notion that one is a god and has need of nothing and no one) successfully prevents almost every form of life (joy, peace, God's presence and blessings and revelations) from becoming a reality among christians or believers.

The spiritual atmosphere over America is nearly impenetrable and is similar to the spiritual hindrance you encounter in Daniel 10. 'In the air', you have all types of hosts of wickedness and territorial spirits fighting against any entrance or incursion of God's presence; and 'on the ground', you have carnal lifestyles, lovelessness, self-absorption, pride, arrogance, and rebellion fighting against the same. It's so bad that Jesus told me in 2012 ( right beforeHe told me I need connection with apostolic believers) that the churches are dead and then proved to me that I was hearing from Him (because I was surprised that God would use such a strong and negative word for christians anywhere) through Revelation 3:1.

It's not difficult to throw away the reality of modern apostles and prophets in the US and to say they were meant only for the early Church, because there are fake apostles and prophets everywhere today and so no one 'has to' take the truth about genuine ones seriously. As Nathan said to David, you can also say the same to the many ministers in the US who say they are apostles (and prophets) and are not: "You have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme" (2Samuel 12:14).

When Jesus ministered on earth, He had a strange tradition of hiding the meaning of what He was saying from everyone and only revealing things to those who 'drew near' to Him and asked Him for meaning and revelation. When we're seeking truth, it's often necessary to seek God for ourselves, because you don't want to trust someone else to unfold the truth to you. If you want the truth about prophets (or apostles) and their relevance for today), you'll have to seek God to show you, not me or anyone else.

I’m holding the front here in Ohio.

I grew up in Columbus (my dad graduated from OSU). I'm now in Iowa. Can we start a private conversation?

the Apostles preached the same Gospel we should be preaching today. the signs-wonders-miracles were evidence both of the Holy Spirit and the True Gospel to the unbeliever. don't we still have unbelievers today? why wouldn't signs-wonders-miracles be accompanying when the True Gospel is preached today for today's unbelievers? don't today's unbelievers have the same doubts and issues the unbelievers in the New Testament had? do we serve a God who is the SAME yesterday-today-and tomorrow? i see no reasons the Gifts have ended. and if Churches are small and dead, it's probably because God isn't allowed there via Doctrine and Disbelief.

How many churches have you visited this year looking for one that is trying to be full of the Spirit? If you have not visited all of the Spirit Filled churches in your area yet then I would not conclude that there are not any apostolic churches. Maybe there is and you just have not done the due diligence to visit them all yet.

You might be different but most of the people who have told me that they could not find a good church in their area had not visited but a few in the last year. Just because many are dead does not mean that they all are.

I am fully persuaded that if one prays and has faith God will lead them to a Book of Acts type of church where the gifts of the Spirit are moving and people are able to experience the fivefold ministry. A church were 80% of the people are on fire for God learning how to know Jesus and make him known to the community.

The picture is not as dark as many think it is. They will be pleasantly surprised to find out just how many really good churches there really are if they were to Google and visit every one of them that claim to believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

And in bigger cities they are popping up constantly. There are so many churches being birthed that one is going to need to be careful about assessing the state of the churches based on the bad ones they know about. There could literally be 10 times as many more good ones that one does not know about. I have learned this in the past decade. Things are not as bleak as I once thought they were. I was ignorant of the whole picture.

People don't impress me, so I don't care what church is doing it right or wrong. I care if I'm doing right or wrong. But I report what I see and hear. I don't complain about what others do; I report what people do-- good or bad. I said that Jesus told me the churches of today are dead. Don't skip over that and charge me with being the one to say it. I had to ask Him myself to double-check if He was the one who said it because the word "dead" is a very heavy word to use on christians, especially christians who are 'doing their best'.

In Revelation 3:1-6, Jesus tells the christian church in an entire region that they and others thought they were doing well but that they were in fact not saying, "You have a name that you are alive but you are dead." He then gives them a chance to repent. Negative news doesn't mean it's the end. Negative things can be changed into positive. Jesus's definition of "dead" applies to at least American churches. "Dead" is the opposite of "alive". "Dead" is not the opposite of 'Sunday services, prayer ministry, deliverance ministry, homeless ministry, neighborhood evangelism, youth ministry, singles ministry,' etc. Many churches are doing many things, but they are "dead" because life doesn't originate in activity though activity does initiate life. If Jesus says a church or christian is dead, I believe Him since christians are prone to being dead just like ancient Israel was prone to turning their backs on God. We can't think they were messed up back in the days but we have it right. That's arrogant and ignorant at best.

Seems to be like a classic case of shooting the messenger to me. Prophets may say something people don’t like or agree with and be on the receiving end of the horns.

Here on this message board I’ve seen almost every kind of insult for preaching: been told I’m going to hell, told I’m demon possessed or by an unclean spirit, told I’m a fake. People who aren’t threatened don’t lash out like that over theological discussions, but didn’t they treat the prophets the same?

Truth is, when you speak the truth, even to some Christians no less, you’re kicking a spiritual hornet’s nest so to speak. It’s spiritual warfare.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 LEB
3 For although we are living in the flesh, we do not wage war according to the flesh,

4 for the weapons of our warfare are not merely human, but powerful to God for the tearing down of fortresses, tearing down arguments

5 and all pride that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.

Ephesians2-19-22

How do you feel about your statements now that you see them in print?
I hear what you are saying. There are many awful churches today.

And there were also other churches that were pleasing to Jesus existing at the same time when John wrote to the seven churches. So it is today.

For certain God will not tell anyone to abandon our call and commitment to be part of a local assembly. Those who weep for the fallen churches and desire to see them repent do so while being deeply involved in a local assembly that is striving after the heart of God. Otherwise they vacate their right to say a word of criticism about any churches. Only those who understand God's vision for the local church will weep for it and only those who weep for it will earn the right and be called by God to speak about it.

Only those pastors who have spent decades serving the body of Christ have the authority, clarity, and platform to correct the churches in a wide broad brush descriptions. They are the ones with the real world experience with the people and pastors that make up those churches and they know what the real issues are and the real conditions. Only those who have been involved in hundreds of churches can speak accurately about the real life condition of those hundreds of churches.

People like David Wilkerson earned my respect as someone who could speak for God on the condition of churches and their need to repent. He wept and labored in much prayer over them and knew many of the pastors and wives who were involved in the churches he was speaking about when he corrected them.

Other people try to correct the churches from the pulpit and try to say things that David Wilkerson said, and even try and sound like him but their words fall flat and they come across as posers trying to sound like a prophet but having no history of weeping and loving the people involved. They have been involved in two churches in their lives and they are going to pretend to know what is wrong with MOST churches? It's literally obnoxious and super immature. Youthful idealism, but nevertheless inexcusable and in need of repentance before they can be trusted with real insight.

There was something authentic in David Wilkerson's correcting messages that is missing from so many who try to say the same things he said.

I would never listen to a person criticize a church who is not committed to one with their whole heart and soul.

If someone does not have the vision of God concerning the necessity and importance of the local assembly and their part in one, then they have no right to criticize any churches and I won't listen to them.

If someone is committed whole heart and soul to the body of Christ in a local assembly and they pray and weep for the things in the churches they see that grieves the Lord then they will have learned how to reach out to those who can be corrected and how to preach a loving message to correct those who are caught up in the errors of the broken churches in our day.

Their prophetic message will have that authentic ring bathed in love and prayer. It cost something to earn the right to correct the churches. Those are the prophets that have spent decades in front line serving and sacrifice for the local assembly. No one else has a right.

Don't you agree?

As a matter of fact I can't think of a single instance where a New Testament prophet was not involved and known among the local assembly of believers. I would go so far as to suggest that it might be true that there was no such thing as one who was not involved in a local assembly. All new testament prophets had their ministry in a local church. No one can call themselves a New Testament prophet today unless the local church calls them that and knows them very well. That is the image I get from Acts.

i went through a list of Church Fathers who spoke about 1 Corinthians 13:10, specifically about the meaning of but when that which is perfect has come. here are Their views.

Irenaeus:
As therefore, when that which is perfect is come, we shall not see another Father, but Him who we now desire to see [12]

Tertullian:
refers to the visible manifestation of Jesus

Clement of Alexander:
to' teaelov is the believer's state when he see's God

Origen:
combines Verse 12 with 10 when we see Jesus [face to face]

Eusebius:
The apostle thought it necessary that the prophetic Gifts should continue in all the Church until the final Coming of Jesus

Archelaus:
"the perfect" is Jesus

Methodius:
the return of Christ and events associated with it

Ambrose:
when we are face to face with God

Jerome:
when we see the Glory of the Lord

Leo the Great:
when we see God as He really is


for the most part, these Church Fathers, who chose to write concerning 1 Corinthians 13:10 believe [the (perfect)] is when we finally see God as He really is in His Heavenly Form.


i see no reason to second guess any of their views. They were closer to the Source than myself, which was 1,600 to 1,900 years ago.

Here is a good article that traces the entire history of that interpretation.
https://fdocuments.net/document/1-c...st-theological-seminary-a-history.html?page=1

Thank You!

It is 89 pages but it is well worth the read. I saved a copy for my reference collection. Being Baptist I would assume that the author is not a continuationist but he certainly is intellectually honest and scholarly and has proven to anyone who is willing to examine the facts that "That which is perfect is come" is not the writing of the New Testament and one should not use this to support a ceasationist view unless they don't care about loosing all credibility as a biblical scholar.

I myself am a continuationist but I respect and read from many who are not. This author has done a great job of tracing the history of all interpretations on 1 Cor 13 and I plan to print copies of it to hand to serious seekers who seem convinced that 1 Cor is about the writing of the bible. It is easier to let them read this than to try to explain it while standing in the church foyer.

I meant to say, "Many churches are doing many things, but they are 'dead' because activity doesn't produce life though life inevitably produces activity."

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus specifically talks about christians (many people have tried to insert non-christians there but the context and wording are clear). He says that many christians will present Him with their works-- even great works that 99.999% of christians are not doing and will never do-- thinking that those things are sufficient to get to Heaven. When He says, "I never knew you" to them, that "knew" has to do with what the Bible sometimes calls 'being in Christ' or 'remaining in the Vine'.

A person can be a christian and do all kinds of religious and even spiritual and great works but still be "dead" spiritually (which is the type of "dead" Jesus is talking about in Revelation 3:1) and therefore unsaved. As I said before, "alive" is the opposite of "dead". 'christian works' are not the opposite of "dead". A believer who is 'in Christ' will be spiritually "alive" just as Jesus is spiritually "alive" and will have 'life' in himself just as Jesus has 'life' in Himself. Jesus does not and will not call such people "dead". As the Bible says:

"In Him was life (salvation), and the life (salvation) was the light (guarantor, hope) of men" (John 1:4).

The crux of the 'war' between people who are genuinely apostolic and prophetic vs. those who are pastoral, evangelical, teachers, and those who follow them is that the latter group is often content to remain in the milk of the Word while the former insist on moving on to the bread and meat. As a result, both sides tend to disagree.

1.) "I write to you, little children, because you have known the Father. I have written to you, fathers, because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the wicked one" (1John 2:12-14).

2.) "I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; or you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men" (1Corinthians 3:1-3).

3.) "Though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil" (Hebrews 5:12-14).

In 1Jn. 2, John exposes the three levels of spiritual growth: little children, young men, and fathers. The structure of modern church is pastoral and is content to corral and baby the sheep and make sure they are 'safe' and comfortable. On the other hand, apostolic and prophetic people want the churches to move on past infancy and ford into the depths of God, the adventurous and dangerous places of knowing Him here and now and not waiting till Heaven.

You said that one must be intimately involved in a 'church' before speaking to (or even about) that church. This isn't biblically true nor is it practical. We don't have to be friends with the weatherman before listening to his forecast or befriend our school teachers before learning from them. They are paid by 'someone else' to do what they do. You also said a person must have a heart for a church before admonishing or rebuking the church. The implication is that we can see on the surface when a person has a heart for a church. Yet, the prophets in the Bible were often rejected. The OT prophets had harsh messages and though being God's people themselves, their brethren accused them of not having a heart for God's people. The same happened to Jesus.

God looks on the heart; our part is not to judge people by their outward appearances (afterall, I was in a church where satanists were exposed who, up till that time, were accepted and trusted by the entire congregation because they seemed good on the outside). Our part is to listen to what everyone says (including the pastors we trust) and then look for ourselves whether what they're saying is of/from God, whether the Bible supports it, and whether the Holy Spirit (and sometimes just our conscience) agrees.

There are varying degrees of spiritual death. Jesus telling me the churches are dead doesn't mean they can't be resurrected. Afterall, the valley of dry bones. But infants who are enthralled by marbles sooner or later grow up and find out about diamonds. When diamonds come into view, then marbles no longer exist to a person. God has been calling christians higher for 2,000 years (this is why we've had revivals, reforms, and awakenings); but most christians don't want to move forward. Like Israel, they prefer to receive God's blessings in the desert where life is easy than to cross the Jordan and get far more blessings... with the catch being that they must fight, struggle, and GROW. The genuine apostolic and prophetic want people to start growing up. Most pastors and christians in the West don't want to grow up. So there's that constant 'struggle' between those two camps.

But now, don't adhere to rules and cliches that haven't been proven true. Saying things like "All new testament prophets had their ministry in a local church" is really a way of setting up boundaries to protect your comfort rather than a statement of the truth. As humans, we'd like to choose our friends, our enemies, who can influence our lives, and who can't. But God doesn't respect all our boundaries and does send people we don't know or have never seen to speak to or minister His will to us. If we could only receive from those we 'know', then 99% of us who have 'received' the gospel are disqualified since we didn't [yet] know the person who told us the good news. Don't set up boundaries that God hasn't set up. Out of love and concern, God will eventually crash through those boundaries. That's the bad news. And most of the time He'll do His crashing with prophetic and apostolic people. That's the even worse news.

The person who is open to God is open to Him no matter how He manifests. The Jews rejected God in Jesus because of the manifestation, stating all the reasons Jesus couldn't be the Messiah just as many state today why God can't speak to or reach out to them in this way or through that person. Jesus said in His defense and in the defense of all who He would later send-- from the apostles of that era all the way down to all who Jesus will send until He returns, "My doctrine is not Mine but His who sent Me. If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority" (John 7:16-17). So, the rules are not so much "You must be in relationship with this or that church or ministry or person before you can speak into their lives" but rather that there's a responsibility on the hearers and audience to test the message and the messenger and find out for themselves whether or not they are from God. This puts the responsibility on everyone and not just on the messenger.

Yes, I've been in the churches since at least 1986, and it doesn't take me long to pick up on the general climate (ie. culture: mindsets, value system, and practices) of a church, organization, country, people group, etc. The Bible says it was written for our learning, so we can reasonably (though not happily) deduce that the same way the greater percentage of God's own people treated His prophets many years ago is the same way the greater percentage of God's own people will treat the prophets today.