And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

You ask for scriptures. Why don't we try something new. I am listing some scriptures.

What would happen if I did not comment on them and you did not either. I mean just resist the urge to rewrite these verses.

I won't explain them and you don't either.

Let everyone read them and decide. Problem solved.

If you feel that they must be rewritten to be understood then I would say that is a sign that you are misunderstanding them as they are written.


Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
rd.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Mark 9:48
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’



Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 24:51
And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jude 1:13
Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

None of those verses say eternal torment for all of the unsaved.

I have an idea, let’s do an experiment.

Let’s say you are a judge and sentenced someone to life in prison. So they pored over the law and couldn’t find a single statue that says they can go to life in prison. What’s your answer answer after confirming they’re correct?

why not read what Jesus said which is what we are to do?

So you desire to tell people that these verses "DONT SAY..." something. And you feel that you cannot just let the person read them for what they DO SAY? That is just another form of rewriting them.

If you just say them in their original context and don't tell people what they DONT SAY, you will discover that most people will understand them for what they DO SAY and without needing you to tell them what they DONT SAY.

If you cannot resist the urge to tell people what these verses DONT SAY when you quote them you might be guilty of attempting to rewrite them. Resist that urge.

Are you yelling at me? Say it don't Spray it. I don't think you should be showing people what is NOT WRITTEN.

If we an focus on what IS WRITTEN we don't need to explain to people what is NOT WRITTEN.

I listed verses in another post and you cannot say that I did not give you scriptures. They are fine in their original context and I don't need to comment on them. You can comment on them if you like but your comments don't change what they say.

The problem with the annihilist view is that it requires a rewrite and explanation of these verses and you can't just let people read them as is. Your annihilationist view requires an explanation be given because you know that the reader will not get an annihilationist view if they read these verses and are left to their own reading comprehension skills. So you explain, and explain and explain and accuse others of not sticking to scriptures when all we have to do is post them without explanation and our case has been made. Your case requires comments.

So I will play your game for a minute. I will give scriptures only from now on.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
rd.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Mark 9:48
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’



Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Matthew 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 24:51
And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jude 1:13
Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

If you tell people what the Bible says when it isn’t expressly written then you’re the one rewriting the Bible.

The difference between you and me is I point out what the Bible literally doesn’t say. I don’t tell people what to believe or tell them they can’t imply, infer, parse, or project their assumption that all of the unsaved have eternal torment.

However, I will inform everyone that they don’t have a straightforward verse proving their opinions. Then I will be sure to show them that the only fate of the wicked is death or destruction.

James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."

Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."

2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."

Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

2 Chronicles 28:3
"He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

under the statue of matt 25:46
mr x sentenced eternal punishment
there is a statue

Yes, the warnings are clear in scripture, especially from Jesus. That is why the church has always rejected annihilation
and it has become the domain of cults. If we allow ourselves to throw one biblical principle away it will be easier to throw
away another & another. Paul warned Timothy.

2 Tim 4
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

The lack of understanding in what words LIKE 'eternal, consumed. smoke, etc' is what leads to the false conclusions, the VERY THING I FIGHT against.

I will STAND for THE JUST AND RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD, for what is written. Coming to FAITH out of FEAR of reprisals is NOT LOVE and is not what GOD WANTS. He wants all to come to repentance but it is a choice MADE FROM LOVE, not fear.



Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

166. aiónios ►
Strong's Concordance
aiónios: AGELONG eternal
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.



John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.



Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.




Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


Hence why some need teachers OF WHAT IS WRITTEN and not what may be assumed or concluded FROM what is written.


THE FIRE IS ETERNAL
THE PUNISHMENT is eternal

And a body and soul that go into the lake of fire are just like the fat that melts and liquifies and drops onto a burning coal, its end, a puff of SMOKE.




ALL I AM ASKING FOR IS
Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

is the verse that says THAT THE SOULS OF THE SONS OF GOD WILL ALSO BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER JUST LIKE them.

This REQUEST shouldn't be hard for someone who teaches such a thing. But WHEN such a REQUEST can't be fulfilled, you will see LOTS AND LOTS of words and wisdom and explanations and conclusions of man instead. USED to be that those who put this stuff forth could DECEIVE others with all of that, BUT NOT ANY MORE.

I myself will, DAY AND NIGHT, state that the beast and the false prophet will....

What is written IS THE NARROW PATH.

What man 'concludes' is THE WIDE ONE.


YOU SAID "If you feel that they must be rewritten to be understood then I would say that is a sign that you are misunderstanding them as they are written. "

SINCE I
DO NOT FEEL they must be rewritten to be understood, what follows is also incorrect, not to mention I am not the one ADDING my own conclusions to what is written to be understood in a manner different from what is, that would be you.

Wouldn't have to TELL anyone what ISN'T SAID if

no one was saying SOMETHING WAS SAID THAT ISN'T, in the first place.

Untrue.

Conditional immortality was taught by Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement, Hermas, Polycarp, and others. They taught that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed forever as if by fire, but did not teach there is an immortal soul that would be tortured in fire for eternity.

These are very well-known and renowned early church writers who were much closer to the source than we are. Eternal hell didn’t appear in church doctrine until the 2nd century. Don’t take my word for it, because you won’t anyway. If you really care about this then search it out.

ALL I AM ASKING FOR IS
Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

is the verse that says THAT THE SOULS OF THE SONS OF GOD WILL ALSO BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER JUST LIKE them.

This REQUEST shouldn't be hard for someone who teaches such a thing. But WHEN such a REQUEST can't be fulfilled, you will see LOTS AND LOTS of words and wisdom and explanations and conclusions of man instead. USED to be that those who put this stuff forth could DECEIVE others with all of that, BUT NOT ANY MORE.

I myself will, DAY AND NIGHT, state that the beast and the false prophet will....

What is written IS THE NARROW PATH.

What man 'concludes' is THE WIDE ONE.


YOU SAID "If you feel that they must be rewritten to be understood then I would say that is a sign that you are misunderstanding them as they are written. "

SINCE I
DO NOT FEEL they must be rewritten to be understood, what follows is also incorrect, not to mention I am not the one ADDING my own conclusions to what is written to be understood in a manner different from what is, that would be you. [/QUOTE]



Are you asking if the statement "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" applies to anyone else besides the devil, the false prophet and the beast?

10The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

. 13Then the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them; each one was judged according to their works. 14Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

8But the cowards, faithless, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars — their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

So it is clear that everyone not written in the book of life goes to the Lake of Fire.

Are you really saying that because John did not repeat the phrase "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" every time he mentioned occupants being thrown in the Lake of Fire as he did when he mentioned the devil, beast and false prophet, that this means that they do not suffer the same thing when they get thrown into the Lake of Fire?

John would not need to repeat this statement every time he mentions someone else being thrown into the lake of Fire in order for the reader to assume that this is the consequences of being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

If he did that it would sound like he was writing a song. He would need to repeat is like 5 times. It would take on the character of a poem or song.

The false prophet and beast were thrown into the Lake of fire and one assumes they were in torment night and day for a thousand years and then the devil joins them.

Then John tells us of others that join them. The normal reader would assume they too suffer night and day.

We get it. They all suffer night and day because that is what was already stated at the first mention.

Normal people don't say "John must repeat the statement "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" each time he mentions others being thrown into the Lake of fire or it does not apply to the ones that come later."

You say it is not written that all the recipients of the Lake of Fire will be tormented day and night forever and ever and only the devil and the false prophet and the beast suffer this.

But I say that it DOES NOT say ONLY. You are adding the idea ONLY THESE THREE and it does not say that. It says they will be tormented day and night forever and ever it does not say they are the ONLY ones who do.

You are trying to add an idea not intended by the author. John expected everyone to understand that those others thrown into the Lake of Fire would be in torment day and night forever and ever because THAT IS WHAT HE SAID ALREADY.

IT IS WRITTEN. You just are ignoring it and asking that it be REPEATED before you will accept that IT IS WRITTEN. You don't have the authority to require that this statement be repeated five times.

You should abandon this revelation you thought you had. It is faulty and cannot be supported with normal reading comprehension skills.

But I know you will dig in your heels anyway so I will let it go.

More early church writers believed that the scriptures clearly described eternal torment than the ones that did not. And these early writers that might have thought of something similar to annihilation were not the consensus of the majority of the Church.

It is a true statement that annihilationism has never been the majority view of the bible believing Church and this can easily be discovered by research.

Are you asking if the statement "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" applies to anyone else besides the devil, the false prophet and the beast?

10The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

. 13Then the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them; each one was judged according to their works. 14Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

8But the cowards, faithless, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars — their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

So it is clear that everyone not written in the book of life goes to the Lake of Fire.

Are you really saying that because John did not repeat the phrase "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" every time he mentioned occupants being thrown in the Lake of Fire as he did when he mentioned the devil, beast and false prophet, that this means that they do not suffer the same thing when they get thrown into the Lake of Fire?

John would not need to repeat this statement every time he mentions someone else being thrown into the lake of Fire in order for the reader to assume that this is the consequences of being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

If he did that it would sound like he was writing a song. He would need to repeat is like 5 times. It would take on the character of a poem or song.

The false prophet and beast were thrown into the Lake of fire and one assumes they were in torment night and day for a thousand years and then the devil joins them.

Then John tells us of others that join them. The normal reader would assume they too suffer night and day.

We get it. They all suffer night and day because that is what was already stated at the first mention.

Normal people don't say "John must repeat the statement "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" each time he mentions others being thrown into the Lake of fire or it does not apply to the ones that come later."

You say it is not written that all the recipients of the Lake of Fire will be tormented day and night forever and ever and only the devil and the false prophet and the beast suffer this.

But I say that it DOES NOT say ONLY. You are adding the idea ONLY THESE THREE and it does not say that. It says they will be tormented day and night forever and ever it does not say they are the ONLY ones who do.

You are trying to add an idea not intended by the author. John expected everyone to understand that those others thrown into the Lake of Fire would be in torment day and night forever and ever because THAT IS WHAT HE SAID ALREADY.

IT IS WRITTEN. You just are ignoring it and asking that it be REPEATED before you will accept that IT IS WRITTEN. You don't have the authority to require that this statement be repeated five times.

You should abandon this revelation you thought you had. It is faulty and cannot be supported with normal reading comprehension skills.

But I know you will dig in your heels anyway so I will let it go.

One of our brother remind us the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16

thebrich man die and go to hell

Lazarus also die and cried by angel into Abraham’s bosom and the rich man suffer in hell not disappear, he fell the pain and thersthy

luke 16
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Martyrdom of Polycarp [c. 135 A.D.]—”…they despised all the torments of this world, redeeming themselves from eternal punishment by [the suffering of] a single hour. For this reason the fire of their savage executioners appeared cool to them. For they kept before their view escape from that fire which is eternal and never shall be quenched…” (Vol. 1, pg 39)

“But Polycarp said, ‘Thou threatenest me with fire which burneth for an hour, and after a little is extinguished, but art ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and of eternal punishment reserved for the ungodly.'” (Vol. 1, pg 41) Paperback edition.

Online
https://biblehub.com/library/smyrna...y_polycarp/chapter_xi_no_threats_have_any.htm

From the Ante-Nicene Fathers set

Justin Martyr [c. 160 A.D.]—”Plato used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.” (Vol. 1, pg 165)

“…we hold this view…that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. For if all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire..” (Vol. 1, pg 166)

That’s what I thought. Cherry pick whatever confirms your narrative and ignore the plethora of proof to the contrary.