And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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FreeGrace2 said:
How do you know a soul can burn up competely. The word means more than your narrowly chosen meaning. And it refers to the body.
Show me where the Bible speaks of "the soul body". And then answer my question, if you can.
How do you know a soul can burn up competely. The word means more than your narrowly chosen meaning. And it refers to the body.
Show me where the Bible speaks of "the soul body". And then answer my question, if you can.
You call me dishonest and then you do this. You are dishonest. I showed you lexicons from both OT and NT on what the word translated "soul" CAN MEAN. The meaning can refer to "the person" or "the individudal". In ALL the verses you quote, the context isn't about the immaterial part of man, but the man, the person. That is what is destroyed and dies.
The context of all your verses REFUTE you but your extreme bias and stubbornness prevents you from seeing truth.
Context. Only.
Blame yourself. My responses are in response to what your posts say.
This is just laughable.
Again, just laughable. You've never proved how to punish what isn't present. That is laughable.
The context of all your verses REFUTE you but your extreme bias and stubbornness prevents you from seeing truth.
Context. Only.
Blame yourself. My responses are in response to what your posts say.
This is just laughable.
Again, just laughable. You've never proved how to punish what isn't present. That is laughable.
This is what christians do because there's no Christ in modern religion. They are bored or frustrated or unhappy and so they argue and debate doctrine instead of looking for solutions to practical issues and real-world problems. What a shame how weak, passive, and infantile the western churches are. They have a form of religion but there's no power. In Acts 17, Luke said that the Athenians did nothing but debate and discuss their beliefs. They debated because they had no power and their lives weren't full. Why not start looking for solutions rather than arguing beliefs? There are plenty of problems in life that remain unaddressed and that are far more pressing than debating doctrines that aren't nearly as important.
Runningman said:
Sodom and Gomorrah definitely don’t exist anymore. The Bible says they are an example of what happens to ungodly people. How can ungodly people exist anymore if they are reduced to ashes?
Do you see that you cherry pick your interpretations to make them mean the opposite of what they do in order to prop up your belief that the unsaved somehow never die, are never destroyed, and somehow live forever in hell? Despite the clear words of Jesus that only those with faith in Him live forever. That’s chaos bro.
The other poster begins with S&G that "don't exists anymore". And uses what refers to cities as an example of what happens to those people. iow, the cities no longer exist, so the souls of people no longer exists.
Then he claims others "cherry pick" their interpretations.
Well, since he brought up S&G, he needs to face what Jesus said about the people of S&G:
Matt 11-
20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.
21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
If all the souls of the unsaved will simply cease to exist, why would there even be a difference in what is bearable?
What makes sense is the LEVEL of torment that the souls of the unsaved will experience that makes it either MORE or LESS bearable for some than othets.
I've already asked Rm to answer this, but of course, no answer.
Sodom and Gomorrah definitely don’t exist anymore. The Bible says they are an example of what happens to ungodly people. How can ungodly people exist anymore if they are reduced to ashes?
Do you see that you cherry pick your interpretations to make them mean the opposite of what they do in order to prop up your belief that the unsaved somehow never die, are never destroyed, and somehow live forever in hell? Despite the clear words of Jesus that only those with faith in Him live forever. That’s chaos bro.
The other poster begins with S&G that "don't exists anymore". And uses what refers to cities as an example of what happens to those people. iow, the cities no longer exist, so the souls of people no longer exists.
Then he claims others "cherry pick" their interpretations.
Well, since he brought up S&G, he needs to face what Jesus said about the people of S&G:
Matt 11-
20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.
21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
If all the souls of the unsaved will simply cease to exist, why would there even be a difference in what is bearable?
What makes sense is the LEVEL of torment that the souls of the unsaved will experience that makes it either MORE or LESS bearable for some than othets.
I've already asked Rm to answer this, but of course, no answer.
you’re right and I’m happy to not even be in the Western church. As far as I can tell, this thread really is pointless arguing; I feel that and see that, but at some point it is important to defend the truth, or the truth as we understand it, but it’s also equally important to know when to leave people to their own devices.
We can plant seeds and pray for people, but no one was ever brow-beaten into changing their mind when they’re wrong.
We have One God, One truth giver, so I say let’s hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Are people even listening anymore? Most aren’t from what I see. We’ll all stand before Him and give account some day. I don’t want an uncomfortable confrontation about spreading misinformation about Him.
We can plant seeds and pray for people, but no one was ever brow-beaten into changing their mind when they’re wrong.
We have One God, One truth giver, so I say let’s hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Are people even listening anymore? Most aren’t from what I see. We’ll all stand before Him and give account some day. I don’t want an uncomfortable confrontation about spreading misinformation about Him.
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I’m not even going to read all of your comments as I am sure they are intellectually dishonest and laden with false accusations. That seems to be your MO now that you’ve run out of scholarly rebuttals, proving yourself incapable of defending your interpretation of scripture using verses or any sound understanding of English grammar.
I’ll remain available for anyone else who wants to have a constructive conversation on this, but you aren’t one of those people.
I’ll remain available for anyone else who wants to have a constructive conversation on this, but you aren’t one of those people.
Your argument is false. Jesus made the point that on judgment day (for the unsaved), it will be MORE bearable/tolerable for the citizens of S&G than for citizens of Jesus' day.
The issue never has been about any kind of various ways someone will be tormented. The FACT is just that they WILL BE tormented.
And the torment will be MORE bearable for some and LESS bearable for others.
Your "singular" argument is silly.
The issue never has been about any kind of various ways someone will be tormented. The FACT is just that they WILL BE tormented.
And the torment will be MORE bearable for some and LESS bearable for others.
Your "singular" argument is silly.
FreeGrace2 said:
Using Rom 2:7 as something available for people shows that you haven't even begun yet. Paul made clear that NO human being is able to fulfill Rom 2;7. Read Rom 3:9,10, 20, 23. They all REFUTE such an idea of being good enough to EARN eternal life.
You really don't like it when Scripture REFUTES your claims.
Using Rom 2:7 as something available for people shows that you haven't even begun yet. Paul made clear that NO human being is able to fulfill Rom 2;7. Read Rom 3:9,10, 20, 23. They all REFUTE such an idea of being good enough to EARN eternal life.
You really don't like it when Scripture REFUTES your claims.
I'm not in the western church (because I don't believe that man is more important than God which is the humanism of the west that has thoroughly infiltrated the churches), but I do live in the west.
Though the NT says it often, I have to go back to where John the Baptist said that he must increase for Jesus to increase to bring the point back to the fore: the more selfish people are, the less God can be among them. Selfish isn't the word here. In the west, we're now practically the valley of dry bones spiritually.
Like the religious leaders who hated Jesus, we're so spiritually dead as a society that we don't even know it, the same way if you're asleep you don't know you're asleep till you wake up. Dead, dead, dead-- feeding and living for our flesh while doing religion, copulating daily with the world while promising our love for God, forgetting that Jesus can't be honored when we're always honoring ourselves and that He rejects anyone who tries to serve both Him and their own selfish interests (because as He said, "No one can serve two masters").
Thankfully, there's hope. God reformed and then revived this dry bones in the valley. In the same way, He will reform and revive areas in western nations. But He's not doing it now. If there was a physical thermometer that was made to take the spiritual temperature of a person or place, the reading in America where I live would be well below freezing. But when things really begin to fall apart, in the US courtesy of Joe Biden and other puppets for the global luciferian agenda, then some christians will begin to warm up. Debating with people here or anywhere is like a hamster on its wheel. Let people believe what they believe. The Bible says that major and sustained tribulation is really the only thing that will prove whose beliefs are true and whose beliefs are false.
Though the NT says it often, I have to go back to where John the Baptist said that he must increase for Jesus to increase to bring the point back to the fore: the more selfish people are, the less God can be among them. Selfish isn't the word here. In the west, we're now practically the valley of dry bones spiritually.
Like the religious leaders who hated Jesus, we're so spiritually dead as a society that we don't even know it, the same way if you're asleep you don't know you're asleep till you wake up. Dead, dead, dead-- feeding and living for our flesh while doing religion, copulating daily with the world while promising our love for God, forgetting that Jesus can't be honored when we're always honoring ourselves and that He rejects anyone who tries to serve both Him and their own selfish interests (because as He said, "No one can serve two masters").
Thankfully, there's hope. God reformed and then revived this dry bones in the valley. In the same way, He will reform and revive areas in western nations. But He's not doing it now. If there was a physical thermometer that was made to take the spiritual temperature of a person or place, the reading in America where I live would be well below freezing. But when things really begin to fall apart, in the US courtesy of Joe Biden and other puppets for the global luciferian agenda, then some christians will begin to warm up. Debating with people here or anywhere is like a hamster on its wheel. Let people believe what they believe. The Bible says that major and sustained tribulation is really the only thing that will prove whose beliefs are true and whose beliefs are false.
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HeIsHere retrieve one of them, and this one can be applied to my understanding also. While all of them can be argued that they are speaking solely of the present natural, it cannot be certainly claimed it does not apply to any spiritual state. It's simply only much easier to 'prove' the cessation of the natural state. The cessation of the spiritual state would necessitate the cessation of the natural state, well because it houses the spiritual, by design. As I see it, we can 'be' in the mind of God, that is 'be' as a state of existence, without possessing our own conscious mind, or body naturally. And, however apparently paradoxical, all things are possible with God, we can 'exist' in a state of non-existence once placed there, hence where the beast and the false prophet 'are,' so I'm not 100 percent convince of the OP's claim 'except the devil' either.
Thank you for your time given to take a look, it is precious as we are given only a short span to conduct the business of life. I don't mean to convince anyone as much as I hope for understanding of my perspective.
Thank you for your time given to take a look, it is precious as we are given only a short span to conduct the business of life. I don't mean to convince anyone as much as I hope for understanding of my perspective.
So, all the words said, and NOT ONE PERSON could bring forth anything written that souls receive eternal life in torment, and it is just as written, they just have their part in the Lake of Fire, the Lake being eternal, their smoke going up and away...
Thank you all. I just wanted to be sure it WASN'T written somewhere and I had missed it. I can now rest easy knowing it is as simple as it is written, GOD wasn't writing one thing while meaning another, wasn't trying to trip anyone up with words like PERISH, DESTRUCTION, DEATH but not meaning them.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Thank you all. I just wanted to be sure it WASN'T written somewhere and I had missed it. I can now rest easy knowing it is as simple as it is written, GOD wasn't writing one thing while meaning another, wasn't trying to trip anyone up with words like PERISH, DESTRUCTION, DEATH but not meaning them.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Deuteronomy 12:9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you.
NO REST neither day nor night....
I agree, not many. But how could there be? The whole world will follow after him....only a remnant will not. It is for that remnant that truth must be put forth. No glory from men, just persecution but well worth it, as we want to be on the side of 'Gods will be done'. The words of God are the only THING we can know to be TRUE. If it isn't written...
IT IS WRITTEN VS HATH GOD SAID
NO REST neither day nor night....
I agree, not many. But how could there be? The whole world will follow after him....only a remnant will not. It is for that remnant that truth must be put forth. No glory from men, just persecution but well worth it, as we want to be on the side of 'Gods will be done'. The words of God are the only THING we can know to be TRUE. If it isn't written...
IT IS WRITTEN VS HATH GOD SAID
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In Revelation Jesus made judgements against the 7 churches. The church of Pergamum was judged for the teachings they espouse. I believe God has something to say to the modern church about that and one day people will find out.
The apostle Peter considered it no small thing to distort scripture or letters to the church whether intentionally or unintentionally. That’s why we should be very careful what we say regarding the Bible. Threads like this are what made me change my mind about eternal torment some time ago.
As soon as we are shown the truth it’s time to be honest with ourselves and change or at least say we don’t know.
A good rule is to speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent. It’s really that important to not insert eternal torment for all the unsaved if the Bible doesn’t say that.
2 Peter 3:16
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
But that isn’t the end. The solution isn’t satisfying, but it’s the truth. People need to repent.
The apostle Peter considered it no small thing to distort scripture or letters to the church whether intentionally or unintentionally. That’s why we should be very careful what we say regarding the Bible. Threads like this are what made me change my mind about eternal torment some time ago.
As soon as we are shown the truth it’s time to be honest with ourselves and change or at least say we don’t know.
A good rule is to speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent. It’s really that important to not insert eternal torment for all the unsaved if the Bible doesn’t say that.
2 Peter 3:16
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
But that isn’t the end. The solution isn’t satisfying, but it’s the truth. People need to repent.
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