And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

I am just going to Thank you for your time and end this conversation with you. I didn't realize you were arguing from a place of complete ignorance here. Now that I do know I would just be making you more accountable than you should be, and that would be on me. I have stood and I have warned. BUT

Let me give you a GREAT STARTING point in which to learn the order of what will happen when...

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Remember all the dead who rose both the just and the unjust when the Lords Day began? Well, here are the dead that rose that DAY FINALLY having their JUDGMENT. Some will receive their immortality having had their names found in the book of life, and some will be judged to the 2nd death which is the death of BOTH the body and soul.

AFTER THAT what we find written is

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;

Above and below DID NOT RESURRECT when the 'graves were opened' 2000 years ago and they didn't resurrect in the resurrection of the just and the unjust when Christ returned as LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS to bring an end to the tribulation, when the Lords Day began but remained dead awaiting judgment like Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:

and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.




Matt 25:41
Then will He say also to those on left,

Depart from Me, those being cursed,

into the fire eternal

having been prepared for the devil and the angels of him

2672. kataraomai ►
Strong's Concordance
kataraomai: to curse
Original Word: καταράομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kataraomai
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ar-ah'-om-ahee)
Definition: to curse
Usage: I curse.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2672 kataráomai – to curse. See 2671 (katara).


Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
curse.
Middle voice from katara; to execrate; by analogy, to doom -- curse.


Jude 1:2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.




he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


EVERLASTING CHAINS ONLY UNTO THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT DAY? How COULD THAT be possible IF everlasting never ends?


Hope this helps you soon

That is the problem with translations as opposed to the original words given by God. Here it is AGAIN


FROM THE GREEK MANUSCRIPTS

And He will wipe away


1813. exaleiphó ►
Strong's Concordance
exaleiphó: to wipe out, erase, obliterate
Original Word: ἐξαλείφω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: exaleiphó
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-al-i'-fo)
Definition: to wipe out, erase, obliterate
Usage: I plaster, wash over; I wipe off, wipe out, obliterate.
HELPS Word-studies
1813 eksaleíphō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 218 /aleíphō, "smear") – properly, to rub (smear) out, i.e. completely remove (wipe away); obliterate; remove totally from a previous state with the outcome of being blotted out (erased).

[1813 (eksaleíphō) originally meant, "to plaster, rub smooth, or whitewash." Later it referred to "wiping out" in the sense of "to cancel" (rubbing out a writing or seal impression left on a wax tablet). Thus 1813 (eksaleíphō) was used for canceling obligations or entitlements (extended benefits or liabilities).]


every tear from the eyes of them

and death

NOT will be

any longer

1510. eimi ►
Strong's Concordance
eimi: I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')
Definition: I exist, I am
Usage: I am, exist.

1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).


nor mourning
nor crying
nor pain

NOT they will be any longer

1510. eimi ►
Strong's Concordance
eimi: I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')
Definition: I exist, I am
Usage: I am, exist.

1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).




BECAUSE THE FORMER

4413. prótos ►
Strong's Concordance
prótos: first, chief
Original Word: πρῶτος, η, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prótos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro'-tos)
Definition: first, chief
Usage: first, before, principal, most important.
HELPS Word-studies
4413 prṓtos (an adjective, derived from 4253 /pró, "before, forward") – first (foremost). 4413 /prṓtos ("first, foremost") is the superlative form of 4253 /pró ("before") meaning "what comes first" (is "number one").



THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY

565. aperchomai ►
Strong's Concordance
aperchomai: to go away, go after
Original Word: ἀπέρχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aperchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-erkh'-om-ahee)
Definition: to go away, go after
Usage: I come or go away from, depart, return, arrive, go after, follow.


2. tropically: of departing evils and sufferings, Mark 1:42; Luke 5:13 (ἡ λέπρα ἀπῆλθεν ἀπ' αὐτοῦ); Revelation 9:12; Revelation 11:14; of good things taken away from one, Revelation 18:14 (R G); of an evanescent state of things, Revelation 21:1 (Rec. παρῆλθε), 4; of a report going forth or spread εἰς, Matthew 4:24 (Treg. marginal reading ἐξῆλθεν).

(and to - And GOD is going to obliterate every tear from the eyes of them and death will no LONGER EXIST, NEITHER WILL there be mourning or crying or pain EXISTING any longer BECAUSE everything that was NO LONGER IS)




.

God will be bringing an end to, making them cease to exist, doing away with, obliterating 1 tears 2 death 3 mourning 4 crying 5 pain.



Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


The 2nd death is the LAKE OF FIRE and/or the Lake of fire is the 2nd DEATH



Let's do it the way of MATH which can easily be followed by all

THE LAKE OF FIRE IS THE 2ND DEATH.

DEATH IS TO BE OBLITERATED

THE LAKE OF FIRE IS TO BE OBLITERATED.

ETERNAL DEATH IN LAKE OF FIRE rendered to be an IMPOSSIBILITY


Smoke IS the very last part of something being burn up and once it has dissipated, there is nothing left.

I am just going to Thank you for your time and end this conversation with you. I didn't realize you were arguing from a place of complete ignorance here.

And less than a thousand years later, he was dead.

Isn't a thousand years as a day to the Lord?

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

2068. esthió ►
Strong's Concordance
esthió: to eat
Original Word: ἐσθίω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: esthió
Phonetic Spelling: (es-thee'-o)
Definition: to eat
Usage: I eat, partake of food; met: I devour, consume (e.g. as rust does)

That’s not what is happening though. I do accept what the Bible says, but you’re misrepresenting me in your pretense to the question. Why should I dignify that with an answer? Is this how you talk to people in real life?

Sure, but not to Adam. You see immediate consequences of his disobedience. Blaming others, hiding from God, attempting to cover up - the marks of a sinner. Death is not the end of existence. It is separation from God. The wicked will be raised to face judgement just as the righteous. There is the second death, making the first death eternal and irreversible.

God's mercy and grace have been extended to man for thousands of years. God sent Jesus to die in our place. If there were no consequences for sinners, then the death of Jesus is pointless. So is the sacrifice of those who give up everything for His sake and even die for Christ.

Your question how everlasting never end?

ever lasting mean never end so why you ask how come?

Quick recap

of WHAT IS WRITTEN vs what some men teach, even though it is NOT WRITTEN anywhere

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.

And what is their part? DEATH. That is their destiny.

What are the choices set before us 'Life or Death' , NOT eternal wonderful life or eternal tormented life



In case we have ANYONE remaining willfully ignorant

there is not one verse about the lake of fire where souls

HAVING BEEN judged to the 2nd death

NOT ONLY DON'T EXPERIENCE THAT DEATH (OF THE BODY AND SOUL)

BUT INSTEAD ARE GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE, TO BE IN CONSCIOUS TORMENT




Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Since 1 Corinthians 15:26 says The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death and only the beast and false prophet are mentioned before that WHO do you suppose is ADDING TO SCRIPTURE by teaching that THOSE SOULS are not being put to death at all but are really receiving eternal life to be forever tormented?


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The whole discussion of conscious eternal torment can be summed up from the words of Jesus Christ.

Matt 10:15 - Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Matt 11:22 - But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you.

Matt 11:24 - But I say unto you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

This shows that Jesus taught that "in the day of judgment", a reference to the GWT judgment of all unbelievers, there will be DEGREES of tolerableness among the unbelievers.

For some, it will be more tolerable. And for others, it will be less tolerable.

The point is that there will be NO intolerable suffering in the LOF. The torment will be varying levels of tolerance.

So says Jesus.

Gideon300 said:
So what is death? You won't accept the obvious from God's word. So how do you define it?

Why do you dodge these excellent questions? Because they put you in a corner, right??

I would love to see how you define "death". It's sure not clear from any of your posts. Esp since you and klero brings such irrelevant defintions to the discussion.

Please answer the question. Don't be afraid to show yourself.

That’s not what is happening though. I do accept what the Bible says, but you’re misrepresenting me in your pretense to the question. Why should I dignify that with an answer? Is this how you talk to people in real life?

Uh no I'm not in a corner. I see my self standing out in the open for several dozen pages trying to help the people here understand and I've already explained what death is. The person I was talking to came into this conversation very late and said death is a seperation from God which the Bible doesn't say.

I don't think telling you the Biblical definition of death again will help you. So I won't give you what you're asking for.

Often I answer questions with a question because I know that if people like you feel like something is their idea then they're more likely to accept it.

So let's ask this: when Jesus said God can destroy body and soul in hell or when James said that God is able to save or destroy, do you see they are talking bout hell being a place where the only option is being destroyed?

They worded it this way because the alterntive is that God can save someone. John 3:16 puts it concisely and completely. Believe in God's Son and have everlasting life. Don't believe in God's Son and perish. Those are the only options. Perish means "destroy utterly." That's called complete death of the person. Don't forget a person is a body, soul, and spirit.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Genesis 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


The first death, the death of the body is just a change in circumstances for the spirit soul of the person. There is a resurrection of the dead after the first death, both the just and unjust, in which we find them being judged 1000 years later...in which some receive their immortality (name in book of life) while others go into the lake of fire that kills both the body and soul. So the 2nd death there is no return from, but the 1st there definitely is, which I am saying because

you said "making the first death eternal and irreversible".

How horrible it must be, trying to KEEP defending something that isn't written and isn't taught. Look what it has you reaching for.

so as we are concerned with the WHEN and the duration, let's see what you have brought to the table.

IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT. The Great white throne Judgment. The ending of this age and when we are in the New Heaven and New earth, that day becomes "OF THE FORMER EARTH" as He says, HE MAKES ALL THINGS NEW.

Remember THAT IS THE TIME OF the 2nd death and we know there WILL BE NO no more DEATH and no more PAIN so varying 'degrees' WONT be allowed EITHER.
at least you finally brought something new.

To bad it ALSO backs up it all coming to an end.

Uh no I'm not in a corner.

I don't think telling you the Biblical definition of death again will help you. So I won't give you what you're asking fo.r

So let's ask this: when Jesus said God can destroy body and soul in hell or when James said that God is able to save or destroy, do you see they are talking bout hell being a place where the only option is being destroyed?

They worded it this way because the alterntive is that God can save someone. John 3:16 puts it concisely and completely. Believe in God's Son and have everlasting life. Don't believe in God's Son and perish. Those are the only options. Perish means "destroy utterly." That's called complete death of the person. Don't forget a person is a body, soul, and spirit.

No rest day or night for one day and night? It doesn’t have the world eternal in the there so that isn’t an eternal torment verse. Any others?

Your eyes are just closed.


Typical kind of response when a poster actually doesn't have an answer.


No, because neither passage SAYS that. You are just adding your own opinion to Scripture.

Of course God is able to cause souls to cease. But NOWHERE in the Bible do we read about God having done that or will do that. Your imagination is just way too active.

What I read in the Bible is that for all unbelievers, there will be the experience of an eternal shame and contempt and punishment. You know the verses. I don't have to repeat them.

If a soul has ceased to exist, there is NOTHING to experience. But anyone with a lick of sense KNOWS that shame, contempt and punishment are all experienced. And the Bible describes them as being ETERNAL.


Your biggest hang-up is in your failure to understand what "perish" means. It means physical death in most passages. It NEVER means "cease to exist" in any passage. That's just your over active imagination thinking so.

You are the one without evidence for your claims.

And Jesus made clear that unbelievers will experience the LOF as either more or less tolerable.

This should actually ease some of your maudlin sentiments about ECT. There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of INtolerable torment.

Jesus told us of a rich man who was "in torment". Yet, he was able to carry on a conversation with Abraham. People in extreme pain or torment are not able to do that. They speak in short bursts only.

So, even though the Bible describes the rich man as being "in torment", it wasn't INtolerable. It WAS tolerable. He was able to carry on a discussion.

The discussion centers on what Jesus said. I gave you 3 verses where Jesus talked about final judgment as being "more tolerable" for some than for others.

So it is a matter of "more or less" tolerable, all based on the GWT judgment of what unbelievers have done during their lives.

You can be sure those who lived EVIL and WICKED lives will experience a LESS tolerable eternity, which those who lived moral lives will experience a MORE tolerable eternity.

From Jesus' own lips.

Does God make mistake by creating a creature that is made in His image and likeness to annihilate him later because He didn’t like the outcome of his behavior?