And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

at least not say cease to exist

I don’t believe the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is literal anyway.

How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere? I remember the first time I found out, I WAS angry, upset, incensed. Even people who know NOTHING else, seem to all know that. I was about to learn yet ANOTHER lesson...that 'meat' is so hard to chew sometimes especially when all you know is milk.


Rev 20:10 tells us

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hopefully all can agree what we read here is

The Devil has been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

the lake of fire and brimstone is where the false prophet and the beast were cast.

AND THE DEVIL shall be tormented forever,


Do we know anything else from what is written here? I don't, do you?


When we began to learn the words of God we learned,

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

the wicked PERISH, by being consumed, turned into smoke, ascend up and away

No mention of eternal suffering in the lake of fire.

SO WHERE did it come from?

It didn't come from here
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IN the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, WOULD REQUIRE THEY BE WATCHED FOREVER, if indeed they were to NOT BE CONSUMED but again

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


WE know from the PSALM that the wicked perish BY BEING consumed into smoke. Here AGAIN, we are told THE SMOKE of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So we see SPECIFICALLY who 'for ever and ever, day and night' is referring to. If we go past this and APPLY it to souls, IS THAT GODS TRUTH or our own?

I believe it would be our own because when you combine that information with

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


I can't find a single verse that states souls themselves will be tormented, just the smoke left from the consuming of them, which ascends up forever.

Have I missed any important SCRIPTURES, anything WRITTEN that changes any of this THAT isn't just conjecture or assumption?

Uh these aren’t claims and you know that.

Anyone who’s talked to you here knows you’re rude, arrogant, and full of pride.

That’s your reputation you’ve created for yourself and your comment history is open to anyone willing to verify, but that isn’t necessary. For starters, you repeatedly called me and another Christian crying drunks even after being told to stop.

Parable is not contradict
the real incident

I don’t believe the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is literal anyway.

There’s no example of the “real incident” in the Bible to compare it with. The only example to compare it with is that the unsaved are destroyed.

The rich man was said to go to torment because he received good things in life; that isn’t how it works. Lazarus went to comfort because he received bad things in life; that isn’t how it works. It’s definitely a parable.

There is only one gospel and it isn’t based on receiving good or bad things.

Give me an example, if you have one.
OK, give me ane example.
OK, show me any "insult" I've used again anyone. Then show me where I've been "contentious".

I would like post # for anyone who follows this thread so they can see for themselves. And actually include the specific quote. Just identifying a post # to a long response to one of your long posts won't be enough.

So, I need the post # and actual quote if you have any to prove what you claim.

My approach has always been to ask for verses that SAY what the poster claims. That is exactly how the Bereans checked out Paul's preaching in Acts 17:11. I do the same.

I think anyone who read my post would instantly realize that they are CHALLENGES to YOU. You made FALSE CLAIMS and I am challenging you to prove them with actual evidence.


No, I'm direct and blunt. Those who have accepted false doctrines just don't like facing the truth.


OK, keep crying about it. I already explained exactly how I use "maudlin sentiments", but go ahead and ignore it and keep trying to demonize me by your lies and deception.

I've never said anything about a "crying drunk". I DID say maudlin means "overly sentimental".

You proved that by the comment that ECT is CRUEL. That's being overly sentimental. God isn't like you. He is NOT even sentimental.

But you wouldn't know that.

And, my challenge stands. Can you prove your empty claims or not? Others read these threads too, even if they don't post.

If you don't/can't prove your claims, you will lose ALL credibility. That's how it works.

Of course you wouldn't. It challenges your claims. It's not a parable. The account of Lazarus and a rich man wasn't introduced as a parable, as all of Jesus' parables were. Further, Jesus never used proper names in His parables, much LESS an actual person. Yet, in the account Jesus mentioned Abraham having a conversation with the rich man and Jesus named the poor man. No parable has such features.

But, like the SDA, you gotta reject the reality of the account. However, Jesus gave us a glimpse of the afterlife for believers and unbelievers, before His resurrection.

Yes, their bodies will certainly be destroyed.


Jesus was simply contrasting how each man lived his life. However, what IS PERFECTLY CLEAR is that Lazarus believed in the Messiah to come and went to "Abraham's bosom" a term in the OT to describe where the saved went after death.

And the rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus up to earth to warn his 5 brothers about where he ended up so they wouldn't be joining him. That's quite clear that the rich man wasn't interested in the Messiah or promise of eternal life while he was alive.

Recall that Paul's only "Scripture" he cited was the OT and from it He proved that "Jesus was the Christ".


That wasn't even Jesus' point. The FACT that Laz was in "Abraham's bosom" proves that he believed in the Messiah.

This isn't debatable. 2 human beings are cast alive into the LOF.

Matt 25:46
New Living Translation
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

English Standard Version
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

King James Bible
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

New King James Version
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

New American Standard Bible
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matt25:41
English Standard Version
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Mark 9:43And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell,h to the unquenchable fire.i 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Jude 1:7 ESV
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 ESV
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Jude 1:13
Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Luke 16:24 ESV
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
BTW, Jesus didn't lie. "There was a man"

Revelation 14:9-11
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Isaiah 33:14 ESV
The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: “Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?”

Yeah, I know, late in the game again. But with such a multitude of witnesses how can somebody come up with such nonsense?

Nonsense. Open a dictionary or just look it up online. Maudlin means self-pityingly or tearfully sentimental, often through drunkenness.

It’s wildly inappropriate here and it’s inexcusable.

You failing to understand that words have meaning doesn’t change anything.

You’re being told now and you’re unrepentant about.

No that isn’t how it works. I don’t need to prove my claims because you know they’re true and there are witnesses.

You’ve destroyed your witness as an alleged Christian and have lost all credibility.

It was one thing to just be wrong about everything in the Bible

I can accept that even if my you aren’t teachable, but every time you reply you give me a wonderful chance to preach the truth and I love that. However, saying mean and nasty things toward others won’t be accepted under any circumstances.

You certainly don’t have any apparent fruits of the Holy Spirit or truth to fall back on.

That’s glaringly obvious. Your solution is to repent and ask God to help you know the truth and ask Him to send the Holy Spirit to help you.

oof, my break wasn't long enough...

You at least can admit that your title was a bit click-baitey since you know that the Beast and the false prophet are cast ALIVE into the lake of fire (which as far as I know is unique).

Are you saying this will not occur?

It doesn’t challenge my claims, which aren’t claims but actually what the Bible says.

The Bible is in complete harmony and doesn’t challenge itself. What an absurd statement.

This parable is pre-crucifixion so their salvation would have been based on their adherence to the Law.

You don’t have a valid point.

The reason they are where they were was literally because they received good or bad things in life.

Even under the law a path to salvation isn’t “receive bad things and you go to comfort.” That’s why this is a parable. It contains spiritual truths and lessons.

Is this beast the human?

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
is this the same man?

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Is this an accurate description of the man you are referring to?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Because this man seems to have ruled in heaven,

There’s no example of the “real incident” in the Bible to compare it with. The only example to compare it with is that the unsaved are destroyed.

The rich man was said to go to torment because he received good things in life; that isn’t how it works. Lazarus went to comfort because he received bad things in life; that isn’t how it works. It’s definitely a parable. There is only one gospel and it isn’t based on receiving good or bad things.