Former pentecostal

The only thing the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for is to do what Jesus said they would do.
Edify, Comfort, and exhort.
They must bring Glory to God and line up with HIS word.

When Jesus comes back, the full understanding will be given when we are Transformed. The incomplete is us.


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55“O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

this is 1cor 15

which addresses nothing, as did not 1cor 13 about the canonization. But the coming of the Lord


1cor 13:2

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part(mystery), and we prophesy in part(Mystery) . 10 But when that which is ]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see in a mirror (mystery) dimly, but then(at HIS coming) face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.


The flesh will finally be put down; we will receive from Christ the glorified body without the fleshly limitations that SIN gives us as death and sickness.

there are only three ways to receive revelation from God, of which two can be done without having KNOWLEDGE IN a bible .

as Romans chapter one says ;

1 General revelation we know there is a God by what HE created

2. Special Revelation the very word of God

3. By the Holy Spirit in a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

The incomplete is us, even with the very word of God.

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

We do not receive the full revelation of God in the word of God of all that GOD is fully. we know only in part and enough for righteous living and appropriate worship.

Is anyone here suggesting they know all of the word of God fully? To where there is NO Msteyer of the Word of God that you have because of the canonization of what we know as the bible?

Are some suggesting 1cor 13:8-10 know all now that you have a KJV?
IF that is the case there should be no Mysteries of the word of God because that is perfect has come. YOU know all. Wow!

that is one big boast

The canon was completed in the 1st century and the Muratori Canon listing the NT was from the 2nd century (almost complete NT). The Syriac Peshitta (complete Bible translation) was also from the 2nd century. But the canon of the Catholic and Orthodox churches included non-inspired books from the Apocrypha.

AMEN!
i love every word you have just presented!

my intent is just to show they have not ceased but still continue.

FYI s/p

Amen I agree with you they have not ceased, but yes, abused most definitely

Precious friends, A Very Warm Welcome to Chat.:
Amen, nothing like "brethren dwelling together In UNITY!" (Psa 133:1) Amen?
? how about the "carnality/division" among the Corinthians? Is That The
"Spiritual Unity" of 1Co 1:9-10, and Ephesians 4:3-6 we should all
"endeavour for"?
I believe "that which is perfect" is "The Revelation Of The Mystery"
Divinely Given To Paul, From The Risen/Glorified LORD, From Heaven!
FOR The Body Of Christ (Romans - Philemon), Today, Under GRACE!!

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided.
+
Helpful study [SIX continuationists Disagree with]?:

Confusion over the "sign" gifts

GRACE And Peace...

Mid actsers major on "the body of Christ" and rightly and yet where is the doctrine propounded but 1 Corinthians [amidst all that carnality]?

And in what manner is the body of Christ propounded? but as being made up of members each having gifts of the Holy Spirit to minister one to the other.
One member has a tongue another an interpretation, one has the gifts of miracles, another healing, another signs and wonders, another prophecy, another administrations.

To me it seems very simple

Jesus came in a physical body having the fulness of the Godhead indwelling Him and His ministry was the manifestation of God dwelling in a human body.

Singly no one of us has Christ wholly but as a church we's suppose to, we being members come together to make up the whole body of Christ and we should be ministering the self-same ministry as He did in Galilee or Judea. Healing, working miracles and signs and wonders, prophesying, preaching, winning souls. Just as He did.

How mighty would the church be?

That is where the Holy Spirit is headed and the devil is fighting best he knows to stop the church from reaching that place. Some folks haven't even got their noses in the door. But before we are finished we are going to become the manifestation of Christ on earth that God intended.

yeh it's messy ... Americans need to look east to China and now India is opening her doors a smidge to the gospel.

Did you miss the .
It was all in fun.

I have seen demon possessed people. If you have you would never make the mistake of thinking someone speaking in tongues is possessed. Very slippery slope indeed.

All I can add to this is AMEN!!

I must humbly admit that I may be mistaken about "that which is perfect."

I recently discovered another alternative view about when "Paul became
a cessationist" Before he even, By God's GRACE, finished penning "The
Complete Revelation Of The Mystery." Here ya go - What think ye?:

When Did the gift of tongues Cease? (I) [scroll to bottom of pg 18]
When Did the gift of tongues Cease? (II)

GRACE And Peace...

".. why ask folks who have never experienced it?"
I did. The woman who 'spoke in tongues' didn't know ANYTHING about what was written, not even about speaking in tongues. But she was 'feeling all saved' because someone had convinced her that speaking in tongues was being saved.


"or else go by what the scripture says".
because somehow faith comes by hearing and HEARING by the words of God has been SKIPPED over and people have forgotten reading and comprehension and people are going straight to the gifts. Seems every thing about the church now a days is 'do for me'. Its supposed to be HOW CAN I SERVE? Not what can you do for me.


So what is written? Maybe this is where the problem is, FOR ME anyhow. I admit I am coming across as one sided but having never truly discussed it before with someone who DID KNOW, I would like to hear where the words of God speak to you on the subject.


Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

that is the tongue of fire - the 'cloven tongue', I believe.


but for the word tongue in most of the Scripture it's a different word for language
1100. glóssa
Strong's Concordance
glóssa: the tongue, a language

Definition: the tongue, a language
Usage: the tongue, a language, a nation (usually distinguished by their speech).
HELPS Word-studies
1100 glṓssa – tongue, used of flowing speech; (figuratively) speaking, inspired by God, like the evidence of tongues-speaking supplied by the Lord in the book of Acts to demonstrate the arrival of the new age of the covenant (i.e. NT times).

[The normative experience of the 120 believers received "tongues as of fire" (Ac 2:3) and miraculously spoke in other actual languages, i.e. that they could not speak before (Ac 2:4f). This sign was repeated in Ac 10:46, 19:6 –
furnishing ample proof (three attestations) that the Lord had incorporated all believers into Christ's (mystical) body (1 Cor 12:13).]


Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues
(an actual language)


1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
(actual languages)


1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
(actual languages)


1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

If someone is speaking in FRENCH and no one understands FRENCH then the only one being spoken to is God as only He understands it also the Spirit understands, yet it remains a mystery to those who don't speak french.

mutter is to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts; to speak


And those who are truly doing so are doing so by

1 Corinthians 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1Corinthians 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

1Corinthians 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

1Corinthians 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

1Corinthians 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

1Corinthians 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1329. dierméneuó ►
Strong's Concordance
dierméneuó: to explain thoroughly, by implication to translate

1329 diermēneúō (from 1223 /diá, "thoroughly across, to the other side," which intensifies 2059 /hermēneúō, "interpret") – properly, thoroughly interpret, accurately (fully) explain.


1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray however also with the mind I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

1 Corinthians 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

1 Corinthians 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.



1Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

1Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

IS THIS HOW THE CHURCH DOES IT? Do they have 2 or 3 who speak in actual languages of other nations and have one interpreter telling the congregation WHAT THEY SAID?

1Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

This is what Jesus said the gifts were for-
Berean Literal Bible
Heal the ailing, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons! Freely you received; freely give.

God hasn't given away his power!

No cessationist says that. The gift of miracles put away... not Gods power independently to heal and do miracles.

So miracles can and still do happen.. any cessationist would agree with that. Just for very particular purposes and times.

Also ...the sign gifts of the Spirit are not the primary means by which God works in scripture. How about the fruits of the Spirit?

How about the long parts of NT scripture that make no mention of the sign gifts?

But anyway... what people claim as miracles now.. does it match a biblical miracle?

Eg... 100 percent healing.. and no reccurance of the same problem.

If the problem came back it would have to be a new injury/condition.

If it does match a biblical miracle..then we can start talking possible miracles.

it sounds like you are saying God can heal but doesn't

Why, then, are there ERRORS in the Bible, if it's "Perfect".

there are no errors in the Bible there are copies discrepancies

https://ntresources.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/perfectpaper94.pdf

The conclusion starting on Page 70 will give you the consensus the best interpretation and it's what you thought it was the first time you read it. Someone had to teach you that it was the NT. No one gets that idea from just reading the text itself. Everyone always understands that Paul is talking about when we see him face to face in heaven. They might not understand that he was talking about post resurrection from 1 cor 13 but they will by the time they read Phil 3.

No one ever suggested it was the NT until 1951 by Vine in his commentary on 1 Cor. but he presented a dual view that went both ways, the canon and when we get to heaven and you didn't understand which he really meant.

The first major defense of the canon view came in a doctoral dissertation submitted to Grace Theological Seminary in 1966 by Rober Gromsacki

But I think that the Church of Christ through Applebury's writings at the beginning and then others, have done more to propogate this awful interpretation.

For most of the 80s when I ran into someone who said "that which is perfect is come" was the NT they were Church of Christ folks and were taught this from their leaders.

I have never met anyone in 40 years who thought Paul was talking about the NT when they first read it on their own. They always say they thought he was talking about when we get to heaven because of the Face to face reference. And they were correct. But then they change their mind after they listen to bad teachers.

Some still know that it is a bad interpretation but use it anyway to war against charismatics because their heart is not sincere before the Lord in wanting to really know what Paul intended. They would rather use the scripture for their own purposes even if it is a wrong application. I don't think people like that are really saved. But maybe I am too harsh.

Is there really a difference between refusing to educate oneself for fear of learning that you are wrong or knowing that you are wrong and proceeding in falsehood anyway?