If you choose your own wife, does that mean God had nothing to do with it? Samson wanted to marry a Philistine and convinced his parents. They did not know that this was from the LORD, that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines? Also, if we trust in the Lord with all our heart, lean not to our own understanding, and in all our ways acknowledge him, He will direct our paths. So he may direct you as you are making choices with this attitude.
Do you think that God did not choose Rebecca for Isaac? I prayed all kinds of stuff when I was looking for a wife. I asked the LORD to choose one for me, to send an angel before me (after reading the Isaac and Rebecca passage.)
I went to a church once that had a tiny Sunday school class when I was probably about 14. The teacher, a middle aged man, said he believed that God made one woman for every man to marry-- based on his interpretation of the Adam and Eve passage. If that were the case, what about widows and widowers? How could they remarry. But I can't say I've heard the idea from the pulpit that God has one person for you. I know some Christians who think that way. An Indonesian friend of mine even said if you married the wrong person you'd have to get a divorce and marry the right person. It was hard to get a word in edgewise with her. If I did, I probably corrected her on that point. That kind of thinking could lead to adulterous remarriage.
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As a young man, I was in a Bible Quiz program where we memorized books of the Bible, and I also studied it, so I'd filter some stuff I'd hear, probably even from the pulpit, and reject some ideas. I have probably heard from the pulpit that all sins are equal. That doesn't seem to line up with a number of things in scripture-- certainly not Old Testament penalties for certain sins, the idea of sinning grievously. Some of those sinful kings sure seem to be presented worse than others. So the 'may as well go out and have sex' line of reasoning wouldn't have been my conclusion if I'd heard this.
Thinking about sex and coveting aren't the same thing. I can think, "If people have sex, they might have babies." That's thinking about sex. I could think, "There sure is a lot of free sex in our society." That's not a sin.
It helped me a little bit to notice in the interlinear that he who looks on a woman __in order to__ lust after her has sinned against her already in his heart. Paul said not to yield your members of instruments of unrighteousness to sin. I also noticed there is some 'dormant lust' that you can be tempted with without crossing over into sin. Paul says make no provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof. There is lusts in the flesh that can lie there dormant that you don't have to stir up and give in to. James says when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. So if you are tempted with lust, you don't sin unless you let it conceive.
'Thou shalt not covet' does not have the 'in order to' statement of intention there, though.
If a single man lays in bed early Saturday morning fantasizing about a specific young woman at church, thinking of having sex with her, I do not see how that could _not_ be coveting her. Jesus spoke of looking at a woman to lust after her. Gune's are women, whether they are wives or not. The ten commandments say your neighbors wife, but Job said he made a covenant with his eyes not to look upon a virgin with lust.
Is fantasizing about sex with a woman who does not exist okay? That might be a bit less clear of an ethical issue than thinking lustful thoughts about a real woman, but I wouldn't encourage it. That was something I did not have a clear conscience about as a single man.
Interestingly, some of these issues did not seem as much of a struggle after I met the woman I would marry, even just dating her. I noticed I didn't have to struggle to not think about sex all the time. Part of the longing might have been enhanced by not having the woman in my life I would marry, or it may be the Lord just gave us grace.
Another issue I wondered about was non-sexual lust. I suppose one could covet one's neighbor's wife in a non-sexual way, if he thinks, 'Wow, that lady is so kind and cooks the best biscuits. I wish she were my wife instead of my neighbor's wife."
I read a bit at the beginning of the Shepherd of Hermas, where the man sees the young woman after she gets out of the bath (a river maybe, fuzzy memory) and then he thinks to himself how wonderful it would be for the man who had her as a wife. Then later the angel rebuffs him for his lustful thoughts about the woman. I'm not sure about the theology of that book, but it did get me thinking. Was the man's lust sexual in nature? Maybe that was implied because she'd been taking a bath. But that still got me thinking, how could I marry a woman without desiring to do so first, and is there any 'lust' involved in that? If I see a woman who is pretty who ticks all the boxes, faith and values included, and I want to date and eventually marry her, is that lust?
Thinking about it, though, you couldn't buy a car or a hamburger without coveting if there isn't some legitimate means of acquiring what you want. I think there is a difference between coveting your neighbor's car, and going out on the market where cars are for sale and offering a fair price. And there must be a legitimate way of finding a wife where you offer the father the bride price (thinking Old Testament here) and he says yes or no.
I don't know how widespread some of these ideas are. A lot of them are things you mention I have heard from individual Christians, but not from the pulpit that I recall. Negative attitudes toward singles wanting to marry in church, toward wanting to find a spouse in the church community, etc. may keep people apart. Discouraging Christians from marrying if they fornicated with each other (only) or experience strong sexual desire would keep people apart.
My wife told me that a denominational leader of a church she used to go to in Indonesia said he refused to marry any couple who had lived under the same roof before they got married. I liked the teaching of the denomination, but the two times I heard this man, he said something weird, IMO. I don't know if he was just not going to marry non-exemplary couples himself and leave that to underlings, or if he wouldn't allow two single previous virgins who fell into fornication to marry. Considering the OT, if I were in his shoe, I think I would especially encourage marriage in these cases if the father of the bride agreed to it.
Do you think that God did not choose Rebecca for Isaac? I prayed all kinds of stuff when I was looking for a wife. I asked the LORD to choose one for me, to send an angel before me (after reading the Isaac and Rebecca passage.)
I went to a church once that had a tiny Sunday school class when I was probably about 14. The teacher, a middle aged man, said he believed that God made one woman for every man to marry-- based on his interpretation of the Adam and Eve passage. If that were the case, what about widows and widowers? How could they remarry. But I can't say I've heard the idea from the pulpit that God has one person for you. I know some Christians who think that way. An Indonesian friend of mine even said if you married the wrong person you'd have to get a divorce and marry the right person. It was hard to get a word in edgewise with her. If I did, I probably corrected her on that point. That kind of thinking could lead to adulterous remarriage.
.
As a young man, I was in a Bible Quiz program where we memorized books of the Bible, and I also studied it, so I'd filter some stuff I'd hear, probably even from the pulpit, and reject some ideas. I have probably heard from the pulpit that all sins are equal. That doesn't seem to line up with a number of things in scripture-- certainly not Old Testament penalties for certain sins, the idea of sinning grievously. Some of those sinful kings sure seem to be presented worse than others. So the 'may as well go out and have sex' line of reasoning wouldn't have been my conclusion if I'd heard this.
Thinking about sex and coveting aren't the same thing. I can think, "If people have sex, they might have babies." That's thinking about sex. I could think, "There sure is a lot of free sex in our society." That's not a sin.
It helped me a little bit to notice in the interlinear that he who looks on a woman __in order to__ lust after her has sinned against her already in his heart. Paul said not to yield your members of instruments of unrighteousness to sin. I also noticed there is some 'dormant lust' that you can be tempted with without crossing over into sin. Paul says make no provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof. There is lusts in the flesh that can lie there dormant that you don't have to stir up and give in to. James says when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. So if you are tempted with lust, you don't sin unless you let it conceive.
'Thou shalt not covet' does not have the 'in order to' statement of intention there, though.
If a single man lays in bed early Saturday morning fantasizing about a specific young woman at church, thinking of having sex with her, I do not see how that could _not_ be coveting her. Jesus spoke of looking at a woman to lust after her. Gune's are women, whether they are wives or not. The ten commandments say your neighbors wife, but Job said he made a covenant with his eyes not to look upon a virgin with lust.
Is fantasizing about sex with a woman who does not exist okay? That might be a bit less clear of an ethical issue than thinking lustful thoughts about a real woman, but I wouldn't encourage it. That was something I did not have a clear conscience about as a single man.
Interestingly, some of these issues did not seem as much of a struggle after I met the woman I would marry, even just dating her. I noticed I didn't have to struggle to not think about sex all the time. Part of the longing might have been enhanced by not having the woman in my life I would marry, or it may be the Lord just gave us grace.
Another issue I wondered about was non-sexual lust. I suppose one could covet one's neighbor's wife in a non-sexual way, if he thinks, 'Wow, that lady is so kind and cooks the best biscuits. I wish she were my wife instead of my neighbor's wife."
I read a bit at the beginning of the Shepherd of Hermas, where the man sees the young woman after she gets out of the bath (a river maybe, fuzzy memory) and then he thinks to himself how wonderful it would be for the man who had her as a wife. Then later the angel rebuffs him for his lustful thoughts about the woman. I'm not sure about the theology of that book, but it did get me thinking. Was the man's lust sexual in nature? Maybe that was implied because she'd been taking a bath. But that still got me thinking, how could I marry a woman without desiring to do so first, and is there any 'lust' involved in that? If I see a woman who is pretty who ticks all the boxes, faith and values included, and I want to date and eventually marry her, is that lust?
Thinking about it, though, you couldn't buy a car or a hamburger without coveting if there isn't some legitimate means of acquiring what you want. I think there is a difference between coveting your neighbor's car, and going out on the market where cars are for sale and offering a fair price. And there must be a legitimate way of finding a wife where you offer the father the bride price (thinking Old Testament here) and he says yes or no.
I don't know how widespread some of these ideas are. A lot of them are things you mention I have heard from individual Christians, but not from the pulpit that I recall. Negative attitudes toward singles wanting to marry in church, toward wanting to find a spouse in the church community, etc. may keep people apart. Discouraging Christians from marrying if they fornicated with each other (only) or experience strong sexual desire would keep people apart.
My wife told me that a denominational leader of a church she used to go to in Indonesia said he refused to marry any couple who had lived under the same roof before they got married. I liked the teaching of the denomination, but the two times I heard this man, he said something weird, IMO. I don't know if he was just not going to marry non-exemplary couples himself and leave that to underlings, or if he wouldn't allow two single previous virgins who fell into fornication to marry. Considering the OT, if I were in his shoe, I think I would especially encourage marriage in these cases if the father of the bride agreed to it.
The men in some sects within Judaism do not touch women (with exceptions, their own wives for example), but that might have developed later.
