The tongues that are...

The problem is 1cor chapter 13:8-10 is not speaking about the word of God that is assumed by those who hold to Cessationism.
FYI the word of God has always been perfect from Genesis to REV. 1 Cor 13:8-10 is not speaking about the word of God. Nor does it say the gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped because of the Canonization that, too, was assumed.

I am not here to convince you. I believe John 3;16 and also say it with my mouth. I read Luke 11:13 and did what God said to do. See God cannot lie. If someone asks for the holy Spirit and get some other spirit then God is a liar. He said if you ask Him for the holy Spirit He will give it. There's nothing else added to that. Nothing I say or anyone else. Christ prayed asked the Father and the 120 that were saved had to wait for the promise. Christ who can not lie said these signs shall follow them that believe and also who so ever. He said we that say we believe will cast out demons. Do we? He said we will speak with new tongues. Do we?

I read all this and its not based on how I personally believe or what some other group of men/women who have no more information about this then I do. What moves the Father what pleases the Father is faith. But if I doubt I will not get anything from God. So as long as doubt God will not do anything. Hes never going to go against my will. Doubt is not based on faith but can be based on fear also. Both are not of God.

In every area of our life we have a choice. To stand believe in faith or doubt fear. That cup that is only 1/4.... is what? yeah 1/4 full. He does it all not us. Satan can not create anything. How can something from the enemy be fake? He didn't create anything. That means he took something that is real right now since there is no time space here he and God is. We do tend to want to run to the negative. God never has never will. It has to be faith.. thats calling those things we can't see hear feel as though they were.

All one has to do is step back pray ask Him and knowing He hears us knowing if we truly want to know and are asking with our heart not with some preconceived idea ((of an idea or opinion) formed before having the evidence for its truth or usefulness. ) already knowing. If we come to Him that way...we won't like what what we hear.

LOL praise GOD GLORY TO JESUS. Man I don't care what others say. I read it.. and Father I will believe..having not seen or heard I will believe if He said it He will always do it. For ANYTHING He said can not come back to Him void. Yeah its not God telling us its man. WHEN hmm that does that mean? Christ had come went so.. not about the past. But when the perfect comes. Darkness is not less today then when the 12/120/3000 were here.

Seen all my life all the gifts working. God in all those moments got the glory for He did it. NO man not even Satan can do those. A kingdom divide against its self will fall HAHA blessed myself here.

Okay, not sure what your point is but thanks for your input.

Your post feels a bit like a straw man argument. I would say at least quasi-straw man. Maybe 5% of Pentecostals are Oneness Pentecostals. In that group, it is fairly common for people to believe that if someone is saved, he will speak in tongues. Most Pentecostals see baptism with the Spirit as distinct from salvation, something that may happen subsequent to salvation-- an immersion in the Spirit where the believer is filled with the Spirit. In Acts 8, the Spirit fell on Samaritans _after_ they accepted the Gospel message and were baptized. In Acts 19, believers were filled with the Spirit, spoke in tongues, and prophesied _after_ they had received Paul's message and were baptized. Paul also writes to believers to 'be filled with the Spirit.'


Again, a straw man, presenting an idea held by a small minority of Pentecostals as representative of the group.

Where does that message mention speaking in tongues? The earliest Christians were Jewish-- the twelve apostles, later Paul, and gradually Samaritans and Gentiles started to come to faith. Gentiles spoke in tongues, too, apparently, according to I Corinthians 12.

But here we have a straw man argument. My understanding is that historically Pentecostals believe in speaking in tongues in 'tongues of men' and still do. If you do a little research on the early Pentecostal movement, there are numerous accounts of people hearing 'speaking in tongues' in their own language. It's in 'The Comforter Has Come'. Val Dez's book "Fire on Azusa" recounts a Russian coming in and hearing speaking in tongues. William Seymour's Apostolic Faith, in the later issues, has numerous accounts from all over from various Pentecostal meetings where people heard languages they knew in tongues or had other people tell them they were speaking languages they knew.

Some early Pentecostals, without Biblical support, believed Parham's theory that speaking in tongues was going to enable Christians to evangelize the nations, but there isn't really any support for that in scripture. Speaking in tongues got the audience's attention in Acts 2, but many were converted after Peter preached. One of them got some indications that he was speaking Bengali, from someone who had been to India, but he couldn't make his tongue be the local language when he get there. Exegetically, he had no basis to expect that as a promise from scripture, anyway. But there have been numerous people recount experiences where others have understood speaking in tongues or they understood what was spoken in tongues. I can think of some I have spoken or corresponded with who had had this experience.
Strawman or at the very least a quasi-straw man. What Pentecostal argues this? I don't know of any Pentecostal who says that 'tongues of men and of angels' is two spiritual spiritual gifts. I want a source for yours, or your authors, assertions here.

A lot of Pentecostals you ask will interpret the passage in a straightforward way, without the agenda to eisegete that some cessationist's have. Paul says 'the tongues of men and of angels', so we should allow for the idea that it could be either one. Paul says of the speaker in tongues 'no man understandeth him.' If you read chapter 12, interpretation is a gift of the Spirit. So none of us knows all the human languages. Functionally, it doesn't matter if the language is human or angelic. Someone speaks in tongues and others do not understand, and someone else interprets through a gift of the Spirit. It doesn't matter, functionally, if the language is human or angelic.

There are some Charismatics who think of tongues as a kind of code language between men and God. I might have encountered one person on these forums who called himself Pentecostal who thought like that.




Of course, since none of us “speak angel,” it is impossible to verify
that those who speak in tongues today are speaking in a legitimate
language, as the foreigners visiting Jerusalem were able to do at
Pentecost (Acts 2:11)...
"
(R Kurth)

[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows that "unknown" with respect to 'tongues' is a 16th century addition to the texts - the word used simply means "language". It's unfortunate that this archaic term "tongue(s)" in reference to language is still used in Biblical texts.

There is absolutely nothing mysterious about Biblical "tongues" – and there is only one type – when referring to something spoken, they are nothing more than real, rational language(s).

In contrast, the “tongues” Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians are producing today is an entirely self-created phenomenon. It is non-cognitive non-language utterance; random free vocalization based upon a subset of the existing underlying sounds (called phonemes) of the speaker’s native language, and any other language(s) the speaker may be familiar with or have had contact with.

It is, in part, typically characterized by repetitive syllables, plays on sound patterns, alliteration, assonance, and over-simplification of syllable structure. It is also interesting to note that any disallowed sound combinations, i.e. consonant clusters, in the speaker’s native language are also disallowed in his/her tongues-speech. Indeed, every phonological rule which governs a speaker's native language will also govern their tongues-speech. That's the sort of 'nail in the coffin', so to speak, in arguing for something divine in nature. Further, the subset of phonemes used typically contains only those sounds which are easiest to produce physiologically.

Occasionally some speakers will use two or more subsets of phonemes to generate glossolalia, producing what, to them, sounds like two (or more) distinct “tongues languages”, thus claiming to be able to speak in “divers tongues”.

There is absolutely nothing that “tongues-speakers” are producing that cannot be explained in relatively simple linguistic terms.

Conversely, when it comes to something spoken, there are absolutely no Biblical references to “tongues” that do not refer to, and cannot be explained in light of, real rational language(s), though it may not be the explanation you want to hear, and it may be one which is radically different from what you believe, or were taught. Nowhere in the Bible is modern tongues-speech advocated or evidenced.

Let me also add here that I am neither a so-called ‘cessationist’ nor a ‘continuationist’ – I do not identify with either term; in fact, I had never heard the two terms until just late in 2016. As far as I’m concerned, quite frankly, since the Biblical reference of “tongues” is to real, rational languages, obviously “tongues” haven’t “ceased” - people still speak.

Here's a transcription of typical tongues-speech which illustrates many of the characteristics I describe above - Speaker is male, from Africa, and I suspect is familiar with at least one sub-Saharan African language (likely a Bantu language). Pronunciation of his glossolalia (as well as his English) is very indicative of familiarity with African languages. “Words” and “sentences” are divided above based solely upon the speaker’s utterance with respect to pauses in speech:

/Ribababaší toromó kijɛtɛ’j. Makjandarabá šandorobó kjáta. Satará kandorobó kirɪbáka:. Ribandarabá šandí ko kararibíš. Sitíŋ garabáš šandarabó kondiká. Mánda kašikarandorobó šija:tí. Mararabá ŋarabɔ’:š. Šití koró gəgəšɪ’ndarabakjá. Mándi kísi turukí karabáš:. Diribí šíti karabá torobó kɪ’ndi. Ríbababá šɪ’tɛ ka: šandorobó kɪ’ta. Masíta katórobo šɪ’ti ka:. Šɪ’kandaraba kókɛj. Makjáraba šándorobó kjánta. Šɪtí kiribá šúndurubú kja. Mándaraba katarabá: dokó šɪtí. Murijaté kándarabá šandurú ku. Síti korábabababá ndoró:./

If there's language here, I would love to know where it is.

When Paul talks about speaking in tongues of angels, later in the verse he also talks about faith to remove mountains.

He compares this then to Godly love, saying it is all worth nothing if he doesn't have Godly love.

This is hypothetical, exaggeration to make a point about Godly love having supremacy over all.

That is the context.

The tongues of angels is hypothetical, as is the faith to move mountains. Not that it's real tongues of angels or that he could actually move a mountain by faith.

Thats just the plain reading of the passage.

Yep - that passage that many like to quote to posit 'angelic speech" is textbook hyperbole.

In all instances of angels speaking, it has always been in a real, rational language. In fact, in traditional Jewish belief, angels can only speak and understand one language; specifically, the sacred/sacerdotal language of Judaism; Hebrew. Paul, being a Jew, would have known this, which lends further support for his intentional use of hyperbole.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

1 Corinthians 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

All can find God, and Jesus is the Way!

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

It's all about Jesus!

There are no examples in the New Testament of individuals receiving the gift of tongues. Whenever there's an account given, it's always a group situation. In 1 Corinthians 12-14, the teaching about tongues is that it's a group thing for the edification of the body, not the individual. There are no examples whatsoever of someone speaking in an "angelic tongue" for self-edification; except in the Corinthian church where Paul criticizes them for such behavior.

Even though God inspires me to do something, it is not perfect because it is me doing it and I am incapable of doing anything including writing the perfect paper.

There's only one perfect to come and it has nothing to do with human intervention. It has to do with when we see Jesus in His Perfect Being, which no human has ever done before.

The Church Fathers definitely got it right in their interpretation of Corinthians 13.

Paul also wrote he wished Everyone Spoke in Tongues. So Paul believed Tongues was for everyone but he also believed in guidelines for it.

Please explain your last sentence in detail, particularly the last section.

First of all, you're assuming tongues means an angelic language for personal use. Second, Paul didn't say I wish you all spoke angelic so you could edify yourself. Third, his real wish was that they prophesy. Lastly, in 1 Corinthians 7:7 Paul said: "For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that." He wished all men could be celibate, but that doesn't mean he's saying that's the reality or that they should seek to be celibate.

You want to speak in "tongues" so you twist the scriptures to say what you want them to say not what they actually say. Nothing I say will sway you so don't count on me to argue this with you.

Tongues is a language of men OR of angels.

Concerning your obsession with the word "angelic," see above. Concerning edifying yourself:

1 Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1 Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

And I'm curious, do you covet to prophesy?

1 Cor 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Apples and oranges.

1 Cor 15:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

You're the one twisting "I would that ye all spake with tongues" into something it does not actually say.

Will anything the Bible says sway YOU?

Yeah, the Bible sways me, not your creative interpretations.

Directly quoting scripture is being creative?

People are going to believe what they want to believe... Cessationists tend to stay cessationists. Tongues is too weird, and they want nothing to do with it.

Maybe, I'm not a cessationist so I wouldn't know.

The Holy Spirit [[((is the SOURCE))]] that gives humans the Utterance that then becomes Speaking in Tongues.

The Holy Spirit [[((is not))]] the source that allows Angels to speak their own Language because they were created with their own Language.

So it's rather easy to deduct and conclude that since Speaking in Tongues comes from the Holy Spirit, then it is the Language of God.

After all, the Bible tells us [[((ONLY GOD CAN UNDERSTAND IT))]]..

Notice the example in my attachment from Acts Chapter 10 that when Tongues is Spoken, no one understands what's being said they just understand it is Tongues being Spoken.

This is a prime example of what is happening today in real Bible based Churches.

Also, even though those hearing don't understand what's being said they understand it is Tongues being Spoken.

But we know God knows what is being said because it is supposed to be a Mystery and for God's understanding only.

If some people saw a true move of the Holy Spirit they would fall over dead. I had a Baptist friend who believed the same way, until it happened to him. All he could say was as the blind said, all I know is once I was blind, now I can see. Although there are people here that are dumb enough to say that it was the devil speaking and not they Holy Spirit. Then I have to wonder at people so long in the church with so little discernment.