How many People Think the Jews Could Be Wrong?

I told them LORD, so BE IT as you have SAID IT.

Thanks for sharing your research VCO, despite all the criticism this topic draws, I believe it is worth as much research as anything else in the Word of God.

No matter how many times I read it, is STILL reads the same to me. I have to Wonder, why so few want to believe that it is saying what GOD REALLY MEANS.

Notice the Spring Water flowing out of the TEMPLE Drawing on the last post. So someone had read the REQUIREMENTS, on the last page.

YES THERE IS.

Isa 46:11 [HCSB]
. . .
Yes, I have spoken; so I will also bring it about. I have planned it; I will also do it.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 (HCSB)
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.
4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God. {That is a Plan of GOD, to get rid of the Antichrist, and that is the THIRD TEMPLE. IT WILL BE BUILT.}
5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this?
6 And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way,
8 and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders,
10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved.
11 For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false,
12 so that all will be condemned-those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.


So you want to try to outguess GOD, you will lose for sure.

Absolutely 😉😉

Whenever I speak of the Jews or Israel as it relates to the prophecy (blessing or punishment) I'm never referring - in any way - to the modern folks who call themselves "jews" or "jewish", UNLESS I also mention Edom, Edomites, or Esau. Please see my latest post to you in the other thread.

When I reference "Daniel's people [Jews]", I'm specifically repeating the context provided by the particular scripture being referenced, not reading anything into the current text. If we go back a few chapters we read daniel's prayer to the Almighty to see who it includes.

Daniel 9:1-7
In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes[a] (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian kingdom— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.

4 I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed:

“Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5 we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our ancestors, and to all the people of the land.

7 “Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you.


I conclude the following from the text:

- People of Judah = I can conclude none other than "Judahites" aka Jews

- Inhabitants of Jerusalem = This is mentioned as distinct from the "People of Judah", the stranger that grafted themselves to Israel through the kingdom of Judah.

- All Israel = From the context, I must conclude both houses, but particularly the northern house called Israel and Ephraim since Daniel already mentioned Judah (the southern house).

- We = all those who agreed to abide by the law of God and who lived in the land.

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From this point, Gabriel is dispatched to explain what will happen to daniel's people:

Daniel 9:20-24(partial)
While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill— 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:

24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city...


I conclude the following from the text:

- my people Israel = Daniel's people, which I must conclude includes "the Jews, "the stranger that grafted themselves to Israel", and "the northern house"

- Your people = the same people Daniel is referencing

- Your holy city = Jerusalem

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Aside: "Holy" is translated from "Kodesh" and simply means "set apart unto God"; what/who He chose for a specific purpose. It does not necessarily connote purity, righteousness, or goodness even though the person or thing set apart unto God is intended for His righteousness and goodness.

So it's valid to read Jerusalem described as the "holy" city ("set apart") but be filled with violence and be targeted for destruction, or have the temple labeled as "holy" but be full of corruption, or call the children of Israel "the holy people" while also prophesying their punishment. They are "set apart" for a specific job/purpose/task but fell into sin and needed redemption.

Daniel's people were "set apart" to take the knowledge of the Living God to the nations. That is the job specifically given to them - Israel - and no other nation of people. Thus, Daniel's people - specifically Israel - are called "the holy people", "God's chosen", and "God's elected representatives" or "the elect".

Further, the firstborns of all creatures are "set apart unto God" and so are called "holy ones". This is why Christ/Messiah was referred to as "that holy one" in the gospels when Gabriel was prophesying Him to Mary.

Even when we say God is "holy" it still simply means He's "set apart" from everyone else...but He's particularly "set apart" because of His absolute purity, righteousness, and goodness as compared to our corruption.

The faulty notion that "holy" means "intrinsically pure, right, and good" comes from Roman Catholic tradition, not from the scriptures or ancient Hebrew mindset.

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When we read the prophecy of the time of trouble (Daniel 12) it is a prophecy specifically for the punishment of daniel's people because of their sin. The context begins in verse one:

Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


I conclude the following from the text:

- Michael is the specific "Prince" (i.e. Principality) over the people of Israel, just like we read earlier in Daniel 10 that there's a Prince over Persia. Each nation/ethnos of people has a spiritual Principality over them (Ephesians 6:12)

- Thy people = Daniel's people as referenced earlier, which includes the Jews, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the northern house.

- Time of trouble = There is a similar reference we have of this and it's "Jacob's trouble" (Jer 30:7, 10 - As for you, O Jacob My servant, do not be afraid, declares the LORD, and do not be dismayed, O Israel. For I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their captivity! see also. Luke 21:24)


Daniel 12:2-4
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


I conclude the following from the text:

- Them & They = Daniel's people, not ALL of them but many of them...particularly the wise.


Daniel 12:5-7
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


I conclude the following from the text:

- He shall have Accomplished = When The Almighty ("He that lives forever and ever") has completed the punishment

- To scatter the power = The punishment is the scattering

- The holy people = The "set apart" people = Daniel's people, as they are the ones being punished

Amen bro.

Rom 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

============================================================================
RAPTURE!
and then........
=============================================================================

Rom 11:26
And so (G3779) all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

οὕτω hoútō, hoo'-to; adverb from G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows):—after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

Rom 11:27
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Rom 11:28
Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Rom 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Paul speaking to Jacob!)

Friend......what we are saying is that a new Jewish "TRIBULATION TEMPLE" is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED prophetically.

Tangentially, there MAY be Jews that become believers because they UNDERSTAND this fulfillment of prophecy, but this is speculation.
Prophecies related to the "tribulation temple" speak nothing in particular to anything regarding the salvation of the Jews.

The Millennial Temple of Ezekiel (chapters 40-48) is another matter altogether.

Rom 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

============================================================================
RAPTURE!
and then........
=============================================================================

Rom 11:26
And so (G3779) all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

οὕτω hoútō, hoo'-to; adverb from G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows):—after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

Rom 11:27
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Rom 11:28
Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Rom 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (G278). (Paul speaking to Jacob!)

ἀμεταμέλητος ametamélētos, am-et-am-el'-ay-tos; from G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of G3338; irrevocable:—without repentance, not to be repented of.

If you are talking about the Daniel 70th week "tribulation temple".....it is way WAAAAYYY too small.

The Millennial Temple building itself is at least 1 mile per side. No to mention the fact that God is going to terraform the entire area and uplift a mountain upon which the millennial Temple will stand.

Shame about the Euphrates River drying up....so many dams and water being drawn off of it that it's a trickle by comparison....maybe ⅓-¼ coming out that it used to contain.

for the anti-Christ. and right now 3 temples are being built in abu daubi all on one piece of property,under what is called the abrahamic accord. new religion called chrislam,tying catholic,jew and muslims . abu daubi was the land of the chaldeans

Do you have links for that?

curious to know,why did you single out the ashkenazis

just look up the ABRAHAMIC ACCORD youll find all the info under that

got it thx.

It's necessarily the case that "all Israel" and "all of Israel" are not the same thing due to Rom 9-11. Dan 9:7 refers to three different groups (with the opportunity for some overlap):

1) the people of Judah
2) the inhabitants of Jerusalem (including foreigners per Deut 28:43, Lev 25:44-46, and those not included in the congregation of the Lord, etc.)
3) all Israel

This appears to be a case of Daniel referring to different people within a nation. The 'we' doesn't mean 'ethnic Jew'.

Dan references 'all Israel' in Dan 9:11 and continues in Dan 9:13 to reference "us". It may be the case that "all Israel" at the time could have been composed entirely of ethnic Israelites (Isaacites?). It's not necessarily the case that "all Israel" would always be composed entirely of those born as ethnic Israelites. (If God can turn rocks into children of Abraham, etc.)

'Inhabitants of Jerusalem' is actually inclusive of Israelites and nonIsraelites alike. How can we make this determination? Because 'all Israel' and 'people of Judah' also necessarily have overlap despite being different things.

'Inhabitants of Jerusalem' does not exclusively referring to nonIsraelites. It wouldn't make sense.

This is splitting hairs in the same sense that saying 'elect' and 'chosen' would be different things (they aren't). Strong's concordance also does not agree with your breakdown of the word.

Was Satan 'set apart' to commit destruction? Would you call Satan holy?

This is incorrect too. If we look at the LXX, we see in that instance of holy that the context of purity is present.

This isn't correct. 'All Israel' cannot possibly refer to a portion of chosen people, unless you are making the claim that only members of the northern house are chosen.

If the phrasing had been "children of Israel" instead, like in Jer 50:4's comparison of "children of Israel" to "children of Judah", it may be a different consideration.

"All Israel" can't be relegated to mean only "children of Israel", even if there is overlap. Do you disagree?

I don't follow your breakdown of "Jew", "all Israel", "grafted", or "northern house". It's hard to say whether I agree or disagree. On what part of your comments, you seem like you are saying one thing, and then another part you almost seem to be saying something entirely different.

Since Dan 9 doesn't reference "Jews" directly, it might be better to avoid the use of that term.


"Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid." - Jer 30:10 KJV

We see "seed" being referenced, which could be a reference to Christ and those in Christ.

Jacob's trouble, yes, we can explore that more.


Highly speculative and seems to contradict what Eph 6:12 is saying in context.

What's your take on this question: why is 'times' plural?

Dan 12 relates to the great tribulation and strongly seems to be talking about all holy people, not a subset of holy people.

Your argument in this post seems to rely on:

1) an unusual definition of holy,
2) an unusual breakdown of 'all Israel', 'Jew', 'inhabitant of Jerusalem', 'people of Judah'.
3) what I assume is a comparison of Jacob's trouble and the Great Tribulation that needs to be fleshed out more
4) unusual interpretations of NT passages (like presenting Eph 6:12 to be about flesh when it seems to state the opposite)

I get that you are trying to line Dan 12 up with references like Jer 50:4's "children of Israel vs. children of Judah", which is neat, and some of these OT nuances are still new to me. Is my understanding correct that "children of Israel" just means "nonJudahite Isrealites like Paul"? Does that mean that Rom 11's "all Israel saved" would really be talking about nonJudahite Israelites only? Did Jesus only come for nonJudahites? I still think this can't be case that "all Israel" could exclude Judahites.

I'm still trying to figure out the big picture interpretation you are presenting. Something about Jacob's trouble, a specific ethnicity that comes into the land promised to Abraham, something about prophesies that aren't fulfilled yet. We've jumped between small parts of the big picture, but maybe it might be useful to look at the big picture and then work our way to the smaller details? Do you have a proposed group that fits into these promises? Or are they unidentified and unrealized? Are you approaching the fulfilment of these promises from events outlined in the literal interpretation of Revelation?

That group is generally who are considered "the Jews" these days by the Zionists who invited them to that land after WW2. They have claimed that ethnic designation.

Here's a whole documentary on the subject for your edification

oh i know who they are,and their history

That is well worth the watch. And it is interesting to see that many of these arguments addressed by the video happen on the forums here all of the time between Christians and Bible rejecting Dispensationalists.