Justified/Saved by Faith & Faith Alone

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#61
Romans 8:35 asks, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?" where the Greek "tis" (Strongs 5101) is translated as "who" here even though the complete meaning includes, "who, which, what, why."
and continues with rhetorical a question of examples that answerable with a "Nope, none of that can separate us from the love of Christ." within the context of a state of being "more than conquerors." Curious state that, being 'more than conquerors' considering we've done none of the conquering ourselves.
I mean, who is able to stop sinning this side of living in an incorruptible body? How can we more than conquer if we can't even at the least conquer them (all of them, do you even realize how many there are to keep track of!!!?)?

And there's that ageless reality that asserts our sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2)! Right?
Well, Romans 8:37-39 gives us the key that there is a case where the answer to this is a resounding "NO!"

37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Not even sin can separate God from those in Christ Jesus our Lord!
If that isn't the good news Bonafide Gospel of Jesus, then I don't know what is!

Romans 8:38-39 Psalm 91:11
:)
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#62
I don't know about that. Perhaps the only difference between faith and unbelief is an openness to the possibility of any certain thing, i.e. dunatos (possible) and adunatos (impossible). Therefore, it is impossible to please God without faith.
If the heart and mind and will were corrupted due to sin, wouldn't the way to fix the problem be the reverse?
If you read the response in Acts 2 after Peter's sermon that appears to be what happens: when they heard this --understood...the mind, they were pricked in their hearts--heart,and said...what shall we do--the will. They aren’t saved yet. Peter hasn't yet told them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#63
Romans 6:17 says much the same...ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you...

Obeyed...the will
Heart...Heart
Doctrine...mind
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#65
I know there is debate to the order of salvation.
To my mind, Scripture teaches faith preceding Regeneration.
Yes there is considerable debate. I truly do appreciate the effort you expended on my behalf. Grace and peace.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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#67
If the heart and mind and will were corrupted due to sin, wouldn't the way to fix the problem be the reverse?
If you read the response in Acts 2 after Peter's sermon that appears to be what happens: when they heard this --understood...the mind, they were pricked in their hearts--heart,and said...what shall we do--the will. They aren’t saved yet. Peter hasn't yet told them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Look at v. 12 and 13 before Peter stood up to address the crowd...

12Astounded and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13But others mocked them and said, “They are drunk on new wine!”

I see the first group asking, "What is possible?" and the second group proclaiming the only phenomenon they believe to be possible.
The first groups hearts were open, sensitive enough to be pricked yes. The second group hardened their hearts to it. So it would seem to me rather that the order would be the will, or the want to, the heart (hardened or open), and then the mind rationalizing the decision.

Think of Thomas, he said, "I will not believe unless..." Does that necessarily mean that he wasn't open to the possibility that Jesus had risen? I'm not so sure of that. He may have only been confessing his unbelief or maybe need of more concrete confirmation of his hope. Who's to say what went on in His mind. Thomas' thoughts may have been something like a jealous love that would say, "If it is true that He showed Himself to you, then He will personally let me know. also."

Whatever was in Thomas' heart, Jesus was aware of because nobody had to tell Him about what Thomas had said.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#68
All I can say is read James 2.
James 2 really should put an end to all debate. Neatly tying together all of the misunderstandings about faith and works, but mostly it doesn't for certain groups. It isn't compatible with the "faith alone" doctrine and James almost wasn't included in the modern canonized New Testament.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#69
Look at v. 12 and 13 before Peter stood up to address the crowd...

12Astounded and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

13But others mocked them and said, “They are drunk on new wine!”

I see the first group asking, "What is possible?" and the second group proclaiming the only phenomenon they believe to be possible.
The first groups hearts were open, sensitive enough to be pricked yes. The second group hardened their hearts to it. So it would seem to me rather that the order would be the will, or the want to, the heart (hardened or open), and then the mind rationalizing the decision.

Think of Thomas, he said, "I will not believe unless..." Does that necessarily mean that he wasn't open to the possibility that Jesus had risen? I'm not so sure of that. He may have only been confessing his unbelief or maybe need of more concrete confirmation of his hope. Who's to say what went on in His mind. Thomas' thoughts may have been something like a jealous love that would say, "If it is true that He showed Himself to you, then He will personally let me know. also."

Whatever was in Thomas' heart, Jesus was aware of because nobody had to tell Him about what Thomas had said.
I appreciate what you've shared but before people are saved I believe a person's heart is as described in Jeremiah 17:9...deceitful above all things and desperately wicked...so I have 2 questions concerning your assessment:

1. How does such a heart believe?
2. Can someone change their own heart?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#70
Jesus Yeshua is our Righteousness, what have we to fear? Because He is we may walk in the sight of the Father with no doubts, in that gift called faith. Praise God, amen.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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#71
I appreciate what you've shared but before people are saved I believe a person's heart is as described in Jeremiah 17:9...deceitful above all things and desperately wicked...so I have 2 questions concerning your assessment:

1. How does such a heart believe?
2. Can someone change their own heart?
David asked God, "create in me a new heart and renew a right spirit within me. (Psalm 51)" And he is a man after God's own heart." I gather that David believed, "All things are possible to him who believes! (Mark 9:23)!" before that verse was ever written!
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#72
David asked God, "create in me a new heart and renew a right spirit within me. (Psalm 51)" And he is a man after God's own heart." I gather that David believed, "All things are possible to him who believes! (Mark 9:23)!" before that verse was ever written!
Sure. But he asked God to create and renew. He didn't do it himself.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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#73
Sure. But he asked God to create and renew. He didn't do it himself.
I guess I don't understand how I might've implied anyone's salvation is diy.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#74
I guess I don't understand how I might've implied anyone's salvation is diy.
In post #67 you said the responses of the 2 different groups was because 1 group hardened their hearts and the other opened their hearts. That's why I have pursued the questioning along the line of the heart.
I apologize if I made it seem that you implied anything at all. I was merely trying to clarify my understanding of what scripture teaches.
 

Aussie52

Active member
Aug 31, 2022
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#75
I appreciate what you've shared but before people are saved I believe a person's heart is as described in Jeremiah 17:9...deceitful above all things and desperately wicked...so I have 2 questions concerning your assessment:

1. How does such a heart believe?
2. Can someone change their own heart?
There is a sense of mystery in regards to salvation. The Divine working in the human soul, the human soul responding to the Divine impulse.
The answer to your questions is the 'Grace of God'.
In the words of the hymn......."Amazing grace, how sweet the sound. That saved a wretch like me.".

God's grace comes to us, enlightening, illuminating, and freeing us in order that we may respond to His love.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#76
There is a sense of mystery in regards to salvation. The Divine working in the human soul, the human soul responding to the Divine impulse.
The answer to your questions is the 'Grace of God'.
In the words of the hymn......."Amazing grace, how sweet the sound. That saved a wretch like me.".

God's grace comes to us, enlightening, illuminating, and freeing us in order that we may respond to His love.
I agree. I would simply call that grace that gave that enlightening, illuminating, and freeing regeneration. I'm not bothered that someone else would state it as you have . Great is the mystery of godliness. I have no problem saying I only see in part.
 

Aussie52

Active member
Aug 31, 2022
117
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#77
OK.
I tend to be a little Arminian and you Calvinist. That's OK.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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#78
In post #67 you said the responses of the 2 different groups was because 1 group hardened their hearts and the other opened their hearts. That's why I have pursued the questioning along the line of the heart.
I apologize if I made it seem that you implied anything at all. I was merely trying to clarify my understanding of what scripture teaches.
Jesus said if we have faith the size of a mustard seed... and my mind's eye processes that info relative to a heart, the seat of our faith. Generally speaking, our hearts are hardened by sin, but God is capable to prick even the smallest openings the size of a mustard seed. Everyone has a wicked heart and everyone has been given a measure of faith, or there would be excuse. As a former philosophy teacher claims, "Ought implies can." So if we ought believe then we have been equipped with the ability to. I don't know if opening our hearts qualifies as 'do it yourself' as I look as it as lying on a table and allowing the surgeon to work, And no one would do that very willingly unless he trusted his skill, of course.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,479
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#79
The answer to your questions is the 'Grace of God'.
That's right. Everything begins with the grace of God. The Bible does not say that we are saved by faith through grace, but that we are saved by grace through faith. Thus "God so loved the world" comes at the beginning of John 3:16. So first comes the grace of God, then comes the finished work of Christ, and only then comes saving faith through the preaching of the Gospel, which is "the power of God unto salvation to them that believe". Then comes the fact that we are kept by the power of God: Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet 1:5) In other words salvation is a work of God (or the Godhead) from start to finish, not of human works lest any man should boast.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#80
Jesus said if we have faith the size of a mustard seed... and my mind's eye processes that info relative to a heart, the seat of our faith. Generally speaking, our hearts are hardened by sin, but God is capable to prick even the smallest openings the size of a mustard seed. Everyone has a wicked heart and everyone has been given a measure of faith, or there would be excuse. As a former philosophy teacher claims, "Ought implies can." So if we ought believe then we have been equipped with the ability to. I don't know if opening our hearts qualifies as 'do it yourself' as I look as it as lying on a table and allowing the surgeon to work, And no one would do that very willingly unless he trusted his skill, of course.
Sure. Your understanding is probably the more common than mine.