Saddleback Church Ousted from Southern Baptist Convention Over Female Pastor

explained the Way of God to him more accurately.

Phoebe the deacon ,diakonos, in Romans 16.

I had already posted very early in the thread about Phoebe being a deaconess. That's acceptable because that's in the Bible. There are plenty of examples of women being in elder and gifted positions (prophetess for example). The position of pastor however - highest position over a church or body of believers - Paul has outlined for men.

I've also written elsewhere in this thread, that God makes exceptions where there are no male believers available or only wimpy men present, where God will then choose a woman to be leader instead. Notice, however, throughout the Bible that this is not often.

That verse is NOT about troublesome women. It is about how women can work out their salvation through their ministry within the family (as wives and mothers).

The role of Christian mothers in bringing up children cannot be overstressed. But ever since the 1960s Western women (and more recently feminists) have shown their disdain for the role that God has given them as wives and mothers, by focusing on work outside the home, competing with men, and wearing pantsuits to show that they are equal (or more than equal to men). The emasculation of men in the West (and particularly in America) has been going on for a long time. This has also led to many divorces, single mothers, etc. But God's ideal women is depicted in Proverbs 31:10-31. This describes a well respected woman who fully exercises her ministry.

That verse is NOT about troublesome women. It is about how women can work out their salvation through their ministry within the family (as wives and mothers).

The role of Christian mothers in bringing up children cannot be overstressed. But ever since the 1960s Western women (and more recently feminists) have shown their disdain for the role that God has given them as wives and mothers, by focusing on work outside the home, competing with men, and wearing pantsuits to show that they are equal (or more than equal to men). The emasculation of men in the West (and particularly in America) has been going on for a long time. This has also led to many divorces, single mothers, etc. But God's ideal women is depicted in Proverbs 31:10-31. This describes a well respected woman who fully exercises her ministry.

Most today, according to Jesus, have an outward form of godliness denying the power, most churches talk "about" Him and do not impart Holy Spirit nor invite Him to be present.
The "pastor" today may not be the same duty and calling it was then, before religion was promoted over relationship.

I don't know what time frame you're using to describe the early church. However, Paul's churches had both women and men in what today is called the pastoral or ministerial offices, as well as other offices of service. They were elders, presbyteros. Often called overseer or supervisor, episkopos.

Acts 18:24-26
New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
Ministry of Apollos
24 Now there came to Ephesus a Jew named Apollos from Alexandria. He was an eloquent man, well-versed in the scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord, and he spoke with burning enthusiasm and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him they took him aside and explained the Way of God to him more accurately.

Phoebe the deacon ,diakonos, in Romans 16.
Passages in scripture also talk about those women who were the head of their household. And there's more.

I will say if someone thinks God can't call women to bring his word and help lead people to his message, they're wrong.

It was a man that got us into this mess in the beginning. Romans 5 12,“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world.”


Because he couldn't lead his woman to obey God rather than be tempted by a snake to disobey God.

Thinking God wouldn't call women to bring the message that leads humanity to repentance from that sin, or to be leaders in service to God when the first man failed as a leader, is silly and biblically indefensible.
The countless women in service under God's appointment today proves God knows what he's doing.

skimming thread, and don't see anything about this mentioned:
Rick Warren and his wife are in cahoots with Soros.
Do you really think anything fruitful will come from Saddleback?

Some time common sense , using the brain God gave us is a good thing..

Thinking the, God given, male and female roles can be interchanged to my understanding is part of the problem you speak of in your post .

skimming thread, and don't see anything about this mentioned:
Rick Warren and his wife are in cahoots with Soros.
Do you really think anything fruitful will come from Saddleback?

You're right. My apologies @Scribe.

It gets discussed often in CC.

Careful exegesis of the texts in question reveals that Paul was not taking up the matter of whether a woman could be a pastor throughout the history of the church. They were addressing local issues to the churches being written to.

I think if we could ask Paul if he was teaching that a woman should never be considered as a pastor under any circumstances that he would say, that was not what he was writing about and that people have taken it upon themselves to go put words in the text that are not there.

Google "Philip Payne Libertarian Women in Ephesus: A Response to Douglas J. Moo's Article, "1 Timothy 2: 11-15: Meaning and Significance"

Dr. Gordon Fee has suggested these two articles (the one by Moo, and the one by Payne responding to him) are very good examples of excellent scholarly presentations of both sides of the discussion. The reader can determine which one does a better job.

I don't know what time frame you're using to describe the early church. However, Paul's churches had both women and men in what today is called the pastoral or ministerial offices, as well as other offices of service. They were elders, presbyteros. Often called overseer or supervisor, episkopos.

Acts 18:24-26
New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
Ministry of Apollos
24 Now there came to Ephesus a Jew named Apollos from Alexandria. He was an eloquent man, well-versed in the scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the Way of the Lord, and he spoke with burning enthusiasm and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him they took him aside and explained the Way of God to him more accurately.

Phoebe the deacon ,diakonos, in Romans 16.
Passages in scripture also talk about those women who were the head of their household. And there's more.

I will say if someone thinks God can't call women to bring his word and help lead people to his message, they're wrong.

It was a man that got us into this mess in the beginning. Romans 5 12,“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world.”


Because he couldn't lead his woman to obey God rather than be tempted by a snake to disobey God.

Thinking God wouldn't call women to bring the message that leads humanity to repentance from that sin, or to be leaders in service to God when the first man failed as a leader, is silly and biblically indefensible.
The countless women in service under God's appointment today proves God knows what he's doing.

skimming thread, and don't see anything about this mentioned:
Rick Warren and his wife are in cahoots with Soros.
Do you really think anything fruitful will come from Saddleback?

One more point that I would like to make if you don't mind.
Aquila and Priscilla were Jews. Given the age-old tenets of that culture, it is unfathomable and inconceivable that the wife would or could ever accede to take a superior authoritative position (or even equally authoritative) part in the marriage or their ministry. In fact they would probably be chastised and excommunicated if they tried it and persisted in it IMO.

Act 18:2
And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.

One more point that I would like to make if you don't mind.
Aquila and Priscilla were Jews. Given the age-old tenets of that culture, it is unfathomable and inconceivable that the wife would or could ever accede to take a superior authoritative position (or even equally authoritative) part in the marriage or their ministry. In fact they would probably be chastised and excommunicated if they tried it and persisted in it IMO.

Act 18:2
And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.

I don't know why you're trying to impose your view on me. I could see you were set on how you read Paul in your other posts, but I let you be because this is a thread exploring that topic and all views are allowed for all to consider.

I read Paul's words just as they are, so I don't see him recommending women being in positions of authority over men. So I'm going to live by that. If you want to live by your view that he said the opposite, I'm fine with that.

Why can't you leave me to serve God as He reveals His word to me? I trust God with you and how He's teaching you. That's why I'm not motivated to try to change your mind or anyone else's since it's already set.

Besides, shaming doesn't work on me. I know my God and His Word and His opinion is the only one that counts to me. Smh....

The role of pastor is greatly overstated in the modern church.

There isn’t a single verse that prohibits a woman from being a pastor. Perhaps you should read more carefully.


When you consider the ratio of bad male leaders in Scripture to good male leaders, and bad female leaders to good ones, you might change your view. There is no biblical support for the idea that God raises females to leadership only when no suitable men are available. Don’t make doctrine from narrative.