Ukraine the bad guy?

Ukraine did not join NATO. That is also a matter of public record. Ukraine should have been allowed to join. Putin would not have dared to invade Ukraine. All Putin has achieved is to push more countries to seek to join NATO. Finland has doubled the length of NATO's border with Russia. Ukraine will join eventually. Putin has made a lot of internal enemies recently. I doubt he will be running the show for long.

Not a bad thread so far! Especially when compared to similar threads on Twitter! Russian bots dominate on Twitter!

As for Cv5 & his links to Twitter, Twitter is just not a "source!" But, it does lend credibility to this thread being in the Conspiracy Forum, where I am rarely found. Hence my very late entry to the discussion.

In the interest of Conflict of Interest, I am half Ukrainian- Galacia. My grandparents immigrated from Galacia to Canada before WWI, lucky for me! My grandmother's family (call her Baba!) got an early Land Grant of 160 acres of the best black soil. It's still a working farm, in the family! My great grandfather was killed in Stalin's purges in 1937. I still have a lot of family in Ukraine & Poland, although some if the young men, (my cousins several times removed) were killed early in the war & a Canadian cousin has been sending medical & food supplies to our family there, since the war began. She also has excellent Ukrainian, but my study of the language only started 6 months before the war.

I've also been studying Ukrainian History since the war began. Timothy Snyder, a professor at Yale has an excellent series filmed in the fall of 2022, called "The Making of Modern Ukraine" on YouTube, as well as reading some of the required texts,

"The Gates of Europe: A History of Ukraine" by Serhii Plokhy;

Bloodlines: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin, by Timothy Snyder.

He is an excellent historian, not such a great speaker, but certainly worth the watch for understanding this war! He uses primary sources, which give so much more relevant information, than Wiki articles or Twitter threads. (CV5, please take some time to watch it!) Snyder speaks 10 languages, and besides history, has excellent insight into the background of this war.

My dad often talked about Ukraine- his 5 Ukrainian cousins with Oriental eyes, handed down from Mongol invasions, and the simple geographic fact that Ukraine has few land barriers, except some mountain ranges. He told me about the repeated invasions. Snyder speaks about Germany's goal in WWII to capture Ukraine, get rid of Ukrainians, and use the country to fulfill his goal of "Lebensraum" or "Living Space" for German people. Lucky for Ukraine, Stalin fought back and drove the Soviets out of Ukraine. Unlucky for Ukraine, as it brought back the Russian conquerors, & Ukraine became a Soviet satellite again.

I am very pro-Ukraine, obviously. I don't want any more of my family killed or living under Russia. Russia's entire premise of the invasion is that the "Little Russians" with the same language & culture as Russia need to return to the motherland! Not! Ukrainian is much closer to Polish than Russian, despite both languages using the Cyrillic alphabet. Nor is their religion the same. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is under a Ukrainian patriarch, although the Russian Orthodox Church would say differently. Most Ukrainians are actually Greek Catholic, follow Orthodox rites, Ukrainian language, but are answerable to the pope. The Orthodox Church has never been beholden to the pope, Orthodoxy being established by Byzantine Orthodox missionaries in 900 AD, who also created the Cyrillic Alphabet.

Russia has attempted, through the Tzars & then the Soviets, to Russify Ukraine, back to Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century. I have a list of each act that forbid teaching Ukrainian, printing books or writing in Ukrainian, and pushing Russia in yhr universities, media, schools and general population, esp in the east. Which explains why so many people in the east speak Russian. They speak Russian because of cultural genocide by the Russians! Although the western regions speak mostly Ukrainian and Polish, the language has been compromised by the influx of Russian words. Ukrainian refugees are surprised by Ukrainian-Canadian, which is more "pure" than what is spoken in Ukraine. Although also more archaic!

Of course, I am completely against Putin & his invasion. I'm not saying all of Ukraine is pure & good. The Azov battalion sounds horrible! But again, after studying Ukrainian history, you can understand why, especially after the Holodomor (famine) in 1932-33, created by Stalin to push collectivization forward, when up to 6 million people, mostly peasants, were systematically starved to death by plan, that the Ukrainians viewed Nazi Germany as liberators from Stalin & his policies. When they started killing ALL the Jews, (In Belarus, Poland etc too!) most Ukrainians realized the Germans were at least on par with Soviet Russia & Stalin. A vivid case of choosing between 2 evils! A lose-lose situation, in which some Ukrainians picked the Nazi evil over the Stalinist evil after WWII.

My biggest fear is that Russia will win! They will try to colonize the Baltic States if they beat Ukraine, and other nations in Eastern Europe after that. This is a war about boundaries and resources, too! In fact, probably more about money than language & culture. Ukraine was the "bread basket of Europe!" When the war ends, it will be again. There are other tempting resources, too!

The fact is, Putin is a former KGB goon, and acts like it! People mean little to his imperialistic need to conquer! Yet, as others point out, his sad war really hasn't been a success! He does use unseasoned troops & bad equipment. Maybe he really believes his own propaganda, and thought the Ukrainians would welcome him as a liberator? Yet, that hasn't occurred, even in the east.

As for Crimea, it was only temporarily Russian. The true people of the Crimea were the Tatars, who either escaped to Turkey or were deported to Uzbekistan -every man, woman & child. Just Google "Crimean Tatars" to learn the truth! Of course, Russian NEEDS the Crimea as a port- it's the only southern one they have! Hence the myth of it belonging to Russia, another piece of unmitigated Russian propaganda and misinformation!

My prayer is that Russia will give up & leave. I also pray that the west will continue to supply Ukraine with arms, sadly. War is horrible, but cultural genocide & annihilation are worse! Zelenskyy has his faults! He is a Russian speaking Jew, which was always a sub-culture in Ukraine, although a very large one till Germany got their way, in WWII sadly. But, he is keeping the country focused on winning the war, something they were never allowed to do in the past! Ukrainian freedom -to exist must be fought for!

As for NATO, Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons to be admitted to NATO, leaving them helpless against Russian nuclear weapons! They better be helping Ukraine!

As someone with Ukrainian heritage, I am proud of my ethnicity & culture. I fear for my family still there! I don't want to see my grandparents' homeland wink out of existence. Ukraine is a proud, historical culture, founded 11 centuries ago. The Rus empire ruled Eastern Europe from Kyiv for 3 centuries before Russia was founded by the Mongols. Russia has always been war like, attacking & grabbing land, wiping out people groups. That has not changed! Russia even stole Ukraine's rightful name, leaving Ruthenia as the interim name for the country!! Just a bit of my knowledge & opinions on this invasion!

Slava Ukraini слава Україні

Not a bad thread so far! Especially when compared to similar threads on Twitter! Russian bots dominate on Twitter!

As for Cv5 & his links to Twitter, Twitter is just not a "source!" But, it does lend credibility to this thread being in the Conspiracy Forum, where I am rarely found. Hence my very late entry to the discussion.

In the interest of Conflict of Interest, I am half Ukrainian- Galacia. My grandparents immigrated from Galacia to Canada before WWI, lucky for me! My grandmother's family (call her Baba!) got an early Land Grant of 160 acres of the best black soil. It's still a working farm, in the family! My great grandfather was killed in Stalin's purges in 1937. I still have a lot of family in Ukraine & Poland, although some if the young men, (my cousins several times removed) were killed early in the war & a Canadian cousin has been sending medical & food supplies to our family there, since the war began. She also has excellent Ukrainian, but my study of the language only started 6 months before the war.

I've also been studying Ukrainian History since the war began. Timothy Snyder, a professor at Yale has an excellent series filmed in the fall of 2022, called "The Making of Modern Ukraine" on YouTube, as well as reading some of the required texts,

"The Gates of Europe: A History of Ukraine" by Serhii Plokhy;

Bloodlines: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin, by Timothy Snyder.

He is an excellent historian, not such a great speaker, but certainly worth the watch for understanding this war! He uses primary sources, which give so much more relevant information, than Wiki articles or Twitter threads. (CV5, please take some time to watch it!) Snyder speaks 10 languages, and besides history, has excellent insight into the background of this war.

My dad often talked about Ukraine- his 5 Ukrainian cousins with Oriental eyes, handed down from Mongol invasions, and the simple geographic fact that Ukraine has few land barriers, except some mountain ranges. He told me about the repeated invasions. Snyder speaks about Germany's goal in WWII to capture Ukraine, get rid of Ukrainians, and use the country to fulfill his goal of "Lebensraum" or "Living Space" for German people. Lucky for Ukraine, Stalin fought back and drove the Soviets out of Ukraine. Unlucky for Ukraine, as it brought back the Russian conquerors, & Ukraine became a Soviet satellite again.

I am very pro-Ukraine, obviously. I don't want any more of my family killed or living under Russia. Russia's entire premise of the invasion is that the "Little Russians" with the same language & culture as Russia need to return to the motherland! Not! Ukrainian is much closer to Polish than Russian, despite both languages using the Cyrillic alphabet. Nor is their religion the same. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is under a Ukrainian patriarch, although the Russian Orthodox Church would say differently. Most Ukrainians are actually Greek Catholic, follow Orthodox rites, Ukrainian language, but are answerable to the pope. The Orthodox Church has never been beholden to the pope, Orthodoxy being established by Byzantine Orthodox missionaries in 900 AD, who also created the Cyrillic Alphabet.

Russia has attempted, through the Tzars & then the Soviets, to Russify Ukraine, back to Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century. I have a list of each act that forbid teaching Ukrainian, printing books or writing in Ukrainian, and pushing Russia in yhr universities, media, schools and general population, esp in the east. Which explains why so many people in the east speak Russian. They speak Russian because of cultural genocide by the Russians! Although the western regions speak mostly Ukrainian and Polish, the language has been compromised by the influx of Russian words. Ukrainian refugees are surprised by Ukrainian-Canadian, which is more "pure" than what is spoken in Ukraine. Although also more archaic!

Of course, I am completely against Putin & his invasion. I'm not saying all of Ukraine is pure & good. The Azov battalion sounds horrible! But again, after studying Ukrainian history, you can understand why, especially after the Holodomor (famine) in 1932-33, created by Stalin to push collectivization forward, when up to 6 million people, mostly peasants, were systematically starved to death by plan, that the Ukrainians viewed Nazi Germany as liberators from Stalin & his policies. When they started killing ALL the Jews, (In Belarus, Poland etc too!) most Ukrainians realized the Germans were at least on par with Soviet Russia & Stalin. A vivid case of choosing between 2 evils! A lose-lose situation, in which some Ukrainians picked the Nazi evil over the Stalinist evil after WWII.

My biggest fear is that Russia will win! They will try to colonize the Baltic States if they beat Ukraine, and other nations in Eastern Europe after that. This is a war about boundaries and resources, too! In fact, probably more about money than language & culture. Ukraine was the "bread basket of Europe!" When the war ends, it will be again. There are other tempting resources, too!

The fact is, Putin is a former KGB goon, and acts like it! People mean little to his imperialistic need to conquer! Yet, as others point out, his sad war really hasn't been a success! He does use unseasoned troops & bad equipment. Maybe he really believes his own propaganda, and thought the Ukrainians would welcome him as a liberator? Yet, that hasn't occurred, even in the east.

As for Crimea, it was only temporarily Russian. The true people of the Crimea were the Tatars, who either escaped to Turkey or were deported to Uzbekistan -every man, woman & child. Just Google "Crimean Tatars" to learn the truth! Of course, Russian NEEDS the Crimea as a port- it's the only southern one they have! Hence the myth of it belonging to Russia, another piece of unmitigated Russian propaganda and misinformation!

My prayer is that Russia will give up & leave. I also pray that the west will continue to supply Ukraine with arms, sadly. War is horrible, but cultural genocide & annihilation are worse! Zelenskyy has his faults! He is a Russian speaking Jew, which was always a sub-culture in Ukraine, although a very large one till Germany got their way, in WWII sadly. But, he is keeping the country focused on winning the war, something they were never allowed to do in the past! Ukrainian freedom -to exist must be fought for!

As for NATO, Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons to be admitted to NATO, leaving them helpless against Russian nuclear weapons! They better be helping Ukraine!

As someone with Ukrainian heritage, I am proud of my ethnicity & culture. I fear for my family still there! I don't want to see my grandparents' homeland wink out of existence. Ukraine is a proud, historical culture, founded 11 centuries ago. The Rus empire ruled Eastern Europe from Kyiv for 3 centuries before Russia was founded by the Mongols. Russia has always been war like, attacking & grabbing land, wiping out people groups. That has not changed! Russia even stole Ukraine's rightful name, leaving Ruthenia as the interim name for the country!! Just a bit of my knowledge & opinions on this invasion!

Slava Ukraini слава Україні

The key point here is that this is NOT a war between Ukraine and Russia.
Ukraine was merely the staging area which was set-up by the US/Britian/NATO. For decades. Of course Russia could see this happening, so consequently made moves of their own, thwarting (it would seem) the success of the mission.

How can anyone deny that Ukraine NEVER had (or has) the economic resources to arm themselves to the teeth for this war?
They did not. They could not. They have been (and continue to be) financed and armed by the West. With a large percentage of the cash flow being siphoned off in kickbacks, skimming, black market illegal sales, and bribes to politicians and mouthpieces. A lot of the right people make a LOT of money on this war. THAT IS HOW ITS DONE FOLKS. WAR IS A RACKET! Wake up for pity sake. And stop this naive childish thinking, in terms of "good guys" and "bad guys".

As for Zel, he is just a useful idiot puppet. Depraved, a druggie and willing to take a bribe. That how the See-eye-aye likes 'em. Just a piece on the chessboard as far as they are concerned. Riding the tiger now. What a dope.

The real crime here is against the Ukrainian people caught in the crossfire between the warring factions. And the tens of thousands being turned into manure whether they like it or not. At the behest of the Western puppet masters.

IMO......none of this would have happened if the written security guarantees (practically begged for by Russia since the fall of the USSR) came to pass in good faith. But nope. The bloodthirsty nutters in power love their intrigues and $$$warmongering$$$.

There is much MUCH more.......shall we say "ancillary exigencies" enfolded into this ongoing debacle. Like Europe realizing that they have been played like a fiddle by the USA (see Macrons latest shenanigans). Like a radical global reordering of the geopolitical power structure and abandonment of the petrodollar. Like Saudi Arabia pivoting East (happening as we speak) and consolidating its power in the region (see rapprochement with Iran/Yemen). Like Europe abandoning the NATO vs Russia project to better serve its own economic and security interests.

As for Russia losing a ground war with a country on its own borders......I for one am entirely skeptical.

What case?
You haven't proven anything. Look, Zelinski might be less racist than others but Slavic nations are very community/nationality centric .

Are the Western financial Titans going to rule over Ukraine? (JPMORGAN, Chase, Wells Fargo, Blackrock and etc?)

At least the current issuing of weapons and weapons systems in Ukraine (including small arms) is being systematically held with strict controls and accountability. No weapons are going to appear on the black market from what we are giving them.

There is much MUCH more.......shall we say "ancillary exigencies" enfolded into this ongoing debacle. Like Europe realizing that they have been played like a fiddle by the USA (see Macrons latest shenanigans). Like a radical global reordering of the geopolitical power structure and abandonment of the petrodollar. Like Saudi Arabia pivoting East (happening as we speak) and consolidating its power in the region (see rapprochement with Iran/Yemen). Like Europe abandoning the NATO vs Russia project to better serve its own economic and security interests.

Ukraine corruption scandal claims several top officials
Several senior Ukrainian government officials have lost their jobs as President Volodymyr Zelenskyy faces a burgeoning corruption scandal

What happens to weapons sent to Ukraine? The US doesn’t really know (CNN)

I am not going to waste my time educating you on Ukrainian corruption. It is vast, it is intractable, and it is making a lot of government affiliated mafia capos very wealthy. EVERYBODY knows that weapons are hitting the black market. There are no rigorous controls. This has been happening for decades and is very $$$profitable$$$.

You are delusional.

Not delusional at all....but you are hyperventilating and foaming at the mouth as all your illusions are being destroyed by history and truth.

The question is WHY?

Why should the US break its treaty and promises made 20+ years ago?

Are treaties only for "when we feel like it?"

Would you like for the contracts you engage in to be treated the same way?....like housing, medical care, police, judicial?

The US is fulfilling its part in the treaty. Russia is not. Obama AND Trump BOTH ignored the treaty but didn't stop the war by ignoring it....it got worse not better.

You want things to continue to get worse?

And contrary to CNN....ALL government issued weapons AND Equipment have custody chain and identifications requirements the same as our military does....no exceptions.

In the initial days it did not....they really didn't think to...besides it was THEIR weapons they had purchased that were not donated. ALL donated weapons are being accounted for and unless the person died while holding it they must be returned.
Even the Russian confiscated weaponry/equipment is being inventoried and issued with the same controls as the American equipment.

You are wrong on several counts...we have eye witnesses and testimonies of independent 3rd parties directly stating the opposite of CNN. And it wasn't to engrandize Ukraine.

And Seymour Hirsch is wrong and you are are right? Absurd. Furthermore, only a fool believes that this is a war pitting the Ukrainian PEOPLE against the Russian PEOPLE. The truth is that this war is one group of murdering mob bosses against another group of equally murderous mob bosses.

Did you see the twitter link I earlier posted where Hollande admits the truth? Well deny this if you want. It's not my credibility that is at stake.

So they have known for the last 9 years that war was inevitable.

More correctly stated: they have been preparing for all these years to INCITE a war only after arming themselves to the teeth.

Russia on the other hand has been begging and pleading for security guarantees to avoid said war.

Hey @JohnDB
You earlier said that you were certain that the leaked docs were bogus. This according to your scrupulous investigative techniques. Well....looks like another swing and a miss buddy.

Update (1445ET): 21-year-old National Guardsman Jack Teixeira has been arrested in connection with the leak of hundreds of classified documents, according to the Washington Examiner and several other outlets.

Teixeira was identified by the NY Times ahead of his arrest on Thursday.

I think making Russia out to be the victim here is a little much.

Are treaties only for "when we feel like it?"

And contrary to CNN....ALL government issued weapons AND Equipment have custody chain and identifications requirements the same as our military does....no exceptions.

Do you really need an answer to that question?


According to the Pentagram, they simply punted that task to the UKRAINIANS. And they (and we) are supposed to trust their due diligence. Utterly preposterous.

All the while, the hapless, helpless and idiotically compliant US taxpayer (that's you buddy!) is getting tax-farmed into penury by the billionaire oligarchs and their hill denizen puppets who are dutifully shoveling endless billions into the "European grifting/money laundering central headquarters" also known as Ukraine. Know for sure that the Big Guy and his gangsta associates are all wetting their beaks.

Get a clue from Assange. He knows the real truth about the "war business model" better than most.....