Ukraine the bad guy?

Yep, this is how their houses are filled with violence and deceit.

Not a bad thread so far! Especially when compared to similar threads on Twitter! Russian bots dominate on Twitter!

As for Cv5 & his links to Twitter, Twitter is just not a "source!" But, it does lend credibility to this thread being in the Conspiracy Forum, where I am rarely found. Hence my very late entry to the discussion.

In the interest of Conflict of Interest, I am half Ukrainian- Galacia. My grandparents immigrated from Galacia to Canada before WWI, lucky for me! My grandmother's family (call her Baba!) got an early Land Grant of 160 acres of the best black soil. It's still a working farm, in the family! My great grandfather was killed in Stalin's purges in 1937. I still have a lot of family in Ukraine & Poland, although some if the young men, (my cousins several times removed) were killed early in the war & a Canadian cousin has been sending medical & food supplies to our family there, since the war began. She also has excellent Ukrainian, but my study of the language only started 6 months before the war.

I've also been studying Ukrainian History since the war began. Timothy Snyder, a professor at Yale has an excellent series filmed in the fall of 2022, called "The Making of Modern Ukraine" on YouTube, as well as reading some of the required texts,

"The Gates of Europe: A History of Ukraine" by Serhii Plokhy;

Bloodlines: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin, by Timothy Snyder.

He is an excellent historian, not such a great speaker, but certainly worth the watch for understanding this war! He uses primary sources, which give so much more relevant information, than Wiki articles or Twitter threads. (CV5, please take some time to watch it!) Snyder speaks 10 languages, and besides history, has excellent insight into the background of this war.

My dad often talked about Ukraine- his 5 Ukrainian cousins with Oriental eyes, handed down from Mongol invasions, and the simple geographic fact that Ukraine has few land barriers, except some mountain ranges. He told me about the repeated invasions. Snyder speaks about Germany's goal in WWII to capture Ukraine, get rid of Ukrainians, and use the country to fulfill his goal of "Lebensraum" or "Living Space" for German people. Lucky for Ukraine, Stalin fought back and drove the Soviets out of Ukraine. Unlucky for Ukraine, as it brought back the Russian conquerors, & Ukraine became a Soviet satellite again.

I am very pro-Ukraine, obviously. I don't want any more of my family killed or living under Russia. Russia's entire premise of the invasion is that the "Little Russians" with the same language & culture as Russia need to return to the motherland! Not! Ukrainian is much closer to Polish than Russian, despite both languages using the Cyrillic alphabet. Nor is their religion the same. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is under a Ukrainian patriarch, although the Russian Orthodox Church would say differently. Most Ukrainians are actually Greek Catholic, follow Orthodox rites, Ukrainian language, but are answerable to the pope. The Orthodox Church has never been beholden to the pope, Orthodoxy being established by Byzantine Orthodox missionaries in 900 AD, who also created the Cyrillic Alphabet.

Russia has attempted, through the Tzars & then the Soviets, to Russify Ukraine, back to Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century. I have a list of each act that forbid teaching Ukrainian, printing books or writing in Ukrainian, and pushing Russia in yhr universities, media, schools and general population, esp in the east. Which explains why so many people in the east speak Russian. They speak Russian because of cultural genocide by the Russians! Although the western regions speak mostly Ukrainian and Polish, the language has been compromised by the influx of Russian words. Ukrainian refugees are surprised by Ukrainian-Canadian, which is more "pure" than what is spoken in Ukraine. Although also more archaic!

Of course, I am completely against Putin & his invasion. I'm not saying all of Ukraine is pure & good. The Azov battalion sounds horrible! But again, after studying Ukrainian history, you can understand why, especially after the Holodomor (famine) in 1932-33, created by Stalin to push collectivization forward, when up to 6 million people, mostly peasants, were systematically starved to death by plan, that the Ukrainians viewed Nazi Germany as liberators from Stalin & his policies. When they started killing ALL the Jews, (In Belarus, Poland etc too!) most Ukrainians realized the Germans were at least on par with Soviet Russia & Stalin. A vivid case of choosing between 2 evils! A lose-lose situation, in which some Ukrainians picked the Nazi evil over the Stalinist evil after WWII.

My biggest fear is that Russia will win! They will try to colonize the Baltic States if they beat Ukraine, and other nations in Eastern Europe after that. This is a war about boundaries and resources, too! In fact, probably more about money than language & culture. Ukraine was the "bread basket of Europe!" When the war ends, it will be again. There are other tempting resources, too!

The fact is, Putin is a former KGB goon, and acts like it! People mean little to his imperialistic need to conquer! Yet, as others point out, his sad war really hasn't been a success! He does use unseasoned troops & bad equipment. Maybe he really believes his own propaganda, and thought the Ukrainians would welcome him as a liberator? Yet, that hasn't occurred, even in the east.

As for Crimea, it was only temporarily Russian. The true people of the Crimea were the Tatars, who either escaped to Turkey or were deported to Uzbekistan -every man, woman & child. Just Google "Crimean Tatars" to learn the truth! Of course, Russian NEEDS the Crimea as a port- it's the only southern one they have! Hence the myth of it belonging to Russia, another piece of unmitigated Russian propaganda and misinformation!

My prayer is that Russia will give up & leave. I also pray that the west will continue to supply Ukraine with arms, sadly. War is horrible, but cultural genocide & annihilation are worse! Zelenskyy has his faults! He is a Russian speaking Jew, which was always a sub-culture in Ukraine, although a very large one till Germany got their way, in WWII sadly. But, he is keeping the country focused on winning the war, something they were never allowed to do in the past! Ukrainian freedom -to exist must be fought for!

As for NATO, Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons to be admitted to NATO, leaving them helpless against Russian nuclear weapons! They better be helping Ukraine!

As someone with Ukrainian heritage, I am proud of my ethnicity & culture. I fear for my family still there! I don't want to see my grandparents' homeland wink out of existence. Ukraine is a proud, historical culture, founded 11 centuries ago. The Rus empire ruled Eastern Europe from Kyiv for 3 centuries before Russia was founded by the Mongols. Russia has always been war like, attacking & grabbing land, wiping out people groups. That has not changed! Russia even stole Ukraine's rightful name, leaving Ruthenia as the interim name for the country!! Just a bit of my knowledge & opinions on this invasion!

Slava Ukraini слава Україні

Sorry but this is a huge load of conspiracy theory nonsense mixed in with a bunch of Russian Propaganda. And for whatever inane reason you believe in it.

Sure, I have worries about what is going to happen in the aftermath of the war. Are the Western financial Titans going to rule over Ukraine? (JPMORGAN, Chase, Wells Fargo, Blackrock and etc?)

What about the Russian government?
Are the plutocrats going to begin infighting? (They are a shark tank) is the infighting and destabilized economy going to shatter the nation to the point that the Russian Mafia rises again? What about the nuclear arsenal? Going to be a huge auction to the highest bidder so long as it isn't the USA or an ally?

The aftermath is definitely troublesome....but one thing at a time.

At least the current issuing of weapons and weapons systems in Ukraine (including small arms) is being systematically held with strict controls and accountability. No weapons are going to appear on the black market from what we are giving them.

Whine and cry all you want.

The USA is honoring its treaties.

Whine and cry all you want. But I'd dare say that we are better off honoring them than not. And I think that the world is better off due to the Non-proliferation treaty than it otherwise would be. Because otherwise we likely would be in a nuclear war instead of a conventional one.

The USA is honoring its treaties.

And nothing to say in response to this post?
I mean, you would have to think that SH has sources far more credible than you or I could ever dream of.

https://christianchat.com/threads/ukraine-the-bad-guy.209784/post-5057794

An honest, patriotic red-blooded American would be on the bat-phone calling their Congressman pronto.
You know.....to keep America from being further sacked into insolvency and Ukrainians and Russians from being turned into compost.

I ain't got a clue

To this we can agree.....

But US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin lied to Congress about every salient fact pertaining to the Ukraine conflict. How "honorable" is that? That is exactly what the leaked documents prove.

Does this systematic intentional deception ring any bells?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers

The Pentagon Papers, officially titled Report of the Office of the Secretary of Defense Vietnam Task Force, is a United States Department of Defense history of the United States' political and military involvement in Vietnam from 1945 to 1967. Released by Daniel Ellsberg, who had worked on the study, they were first brought to the attention of the public on the front page of The New York Times in 1971.[1][2] A 1996 article in The New York Times said that the Pentagon Papers had demonstrated, among other things, that the Johnson Administration had "systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress."

Later, Ellsberg said the documents "demonstrated unconstitutional behavior by a succession of presidents, the violation of their oath and the violation of the oath of every one of their subordinates." He added that he leaked the Papers to end what he perceived to be "a wrongful war".

This was a different time in America. A time where the justice system and check and balances WORKED.

Leak
Daniel Ellsberg knew the leaders of the task force well. He had worked as an aide to McNaughton from 1964 to 1965, had worked on the study for several months in 1967, and Gelb and Halperin approved his access to the work at RAND in 1969.[11] Now opposing the war, Ellsberg and his friend Anthony Russo[25] photocopied the study in October 1969 intending to disclose it. Ellsberg approached Nixon's National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger, Senators William Fulbright and George McGovern, and others, but none were interested.[11]

In February 1971, Ellsberg discussed the study with The New York Times reporter Neil Sheehan, and gave 43 of the volumes to him in March. Before publication, The New York Times sought legal advice. The paper's regular outside counsel, Lord Day & Lord, advised against publication,[11] but in-house counsel James Goodale prevailed with his argument that the press had a First Amendment right to publish information significant to the people's understanding of their government's policy.

The New York Times began publishing excerpts on June 13, 1971; the first article in the series was titled "Vietnam Archive: Pentagon Study Traces Three Decades of Growing US Involvement". The study was dubbed The Pentagon Papers during the resulting media publicity.[11][26] Street protests, political controversy, and lawsuits followed.

To ensure the possibility of public debate about the papers' content, on June 29, US Senator Mike Gravel, an Alaska Democrat, entered 4,100 pages of the papers into the record of his Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds. These portions of the papers, which were edited for Gravel by Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky, were subsequently published by Beacon Press, the publishing arm of the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations.[27] A federal grand jury was subsequently empaneled to investigate possible violations of federal law in the release of the report. Leonard Rodberg, a Gravel aide, was subpoenaed to testify about his role in obtaining and arranging for publication of the Pentagon Papers. Gravel asked the court (in Gravel v. United States) to quash the subpoena on the basis of the Speech or Debate Clause in Article I, Section 6 of the United States Constitution.

That clause provides that "for any Speech or Debate in either House, [a Senator or Representative] shall not be questioned in any other Place", meaning that Gravel could not be prosecuted for anything said on the Senate floor, and, by extension, for anything entered to the Congressional Record, allowing the papers to be publicly read without threat of a treason trial and conviction. When Gravel's request was reviewed by the U.S. Supreme Court, the Court denied the request to extend this protection to Gravel or Rodberg because the grand jury subpoena served on them related to a third party rather than any act they themselves committed for the preparation of materials later entered into the Congressional Record. Nevertheless, the grand jury investigation was halted, and the publication of the papers was never prosecuted.

Later, Ellsberg said the documents "demonstrated unconstitutional behavior by a succession of presidents, the violation of their oath and the violation of the oath of every one of their subordinates."[28] He added that he leaked the Papers to end what he perceived to be "a wrongful war".[28]

The Nixon administration's restraint of the media
President Nixon at first planned to do nothing about publication of the study, since it embarrassed the Johnson and Kennedy administrations rather than his; however, Henry Kissinger convinced the president that not opposing the publication set a negative precedent for future secrets.[11] The administration argued Ellsberg and Russo were guilty of a felony under the Espionage Act of 1917, because they had no authority to publish classified documents.[29] After failing to persuade The New York Times to voluntarily cease publication on June 14,[11] Attorney General John N. Mitchell and Nixon obtained a federal court injunction forcing The New York Times to cease publication after three articles.[11] The New York Times publisher Arthur Ochs Sulzberger said:

The newspaper appealed the injunction, and the case New York Times Co. v. United States (403 U.S. 713) quickly rose through the U.S. legal system to the Supreme Court.[31]

On June 18, 1971, The Washington Post began publishing its own series of articles based upon the Pentagon Papers;[11] Ellsberg had given portions to The Washington Post reporter Ben Bagdikian. Bagdikian brought the information to editor Ben Bradlee. That day, Assistant U.S. Attorney General William Rehnquist asked The Washington Post to cease publication. After the paper refused, Rehnquist sought an injunction in U.S. district court. Judge Murray Gurfein declined to issue such an injunction, writing that "[t]he security of the Nation is not at the ramparts alone. Security also lies in the value of our free institutions. A cantankerous press, an obstinate press, a ubiquitous press must be suffered by those in authority to preserve the even greater values of freedom of expression and the right of the people to know."[32] The government appealed that decision, and on June 26 the Supreme Court agreed to hear it jointly with The New York Times case.[31] Fifteen other newspapers received copies of the study and began publishing it.[11]

This latest salient point to me suggests that you are either a Wagner Group employee or Russian ideologue or a political lapdog engaged in oppositional politics (which will ultimately destroy the USA) I'll let you pick which one.

Treaties don't carry over after an unlawful (and apparently FAILED) revolution. The US doesn't owe Zelensky anything.

No, but I will let YOU "pick one". And again, you will be wiffing at the plate.

The FACT is that I am a nobody and a nothing with connections to no-one.