Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#741
Mar 23, 2016
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#741
brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
... perhaps not deliberate ???

brightfame52 ... you still have not explained how a verb in the active voice, subjunctive mood becomes a passive verb.
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Its an aorist active subjunctive,

So yes those being converted, turned by the Lord are active,
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You say "So yes those being converted, turned by the Lord are active".

Are you saying that the person turns his/her heart?

2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it [their heart] shall turn [verb, active] to the Lord, the vail shall be taken [verb, passive] away.

A simple yes or no will do ... the addition of "those being converted, turned by the Lord" obscures whether or not you are in alignment with Scripture.




brightfame52 said:
You are giving credit to man for what Christ has done, so He alone is responsible for a person turning to the Lord. Give Christ and His Spirit the Glory !
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When you are drawn away from the Lord, do you turn back to Him once you realize you have strayed from Him? Again, a simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#742
Mar 23, 2016
6,857
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#742
rogerg said:
A person turns to Christ but does so only because it is God who moves within them to do so
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I'll ask you the same question I asked brightfame52 ...

When you are drawn away from the Lord, do you turn back to Him once you realize you have strayed from Him? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.
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brightfame52

Well-known member
#743
Nov 21, 2020
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#743
reneweddaybyday said:
excuse me???

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior ... the only begotten Son of the Father ... the Savior of the world, the whole world.

Again, in Acts 5:31, Peter was standing before the high priest and the council ... they were part of the "Israel" about whom Peter was speaking at the time he told them Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him – Acts 5:31-32.

Again, brightfame52, "give" in Acts 5:31 is the Greek word didōmi

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:​
​
6. δίδωμι is joined with nouns denoting an act or an effect;​
​
...​
​
b. the noun denotes something to be done by him to whom it is said to be given: διδόναιτίνι μετάνοιαν, to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18;​


The high priest and the council rejected what God wanted to give and God allowed them to reject ... just as we read in Ez 33:11

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

The high priest and the council refused to turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways ...
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Jesus is the Saviour unto Israel God's Elect!
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
#744
Nov 21, 2020
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#744
reneweddaybyday said:
You say "So yes those being converted, turned by the Lord are active".

Are you saying that the person turns his/her heart?

2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it [their heart] shall turn [verb, active] to the Lord, the vail shall be taken [verb, passive] away.

A simple yes or no will do ... the addition of "those being converted, turned by the Lord" obscures whether or not you are in alignment with Scripture.





When you are drawn away from the Lord, do you turn back to Him once you realize you have strayed from Him? Again, a simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

.
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Christ turns those He died for to God and from their sins.
 
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rogerg

Well-known member
#745
Jul 13, 2021
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#745
reneweddaybyday said:
I'll ask you the same question I asked brightfame52 ...

When you are drawn away from the Lord, do you turn back to Him once you realize you have strayed from Him? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.
.
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I don't. Is that a yes or a no?

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#746
Jul 8, 2018
8,350
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#746
reneweddaybyday said:
excuse me???

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior ... the only begotten Son of the Father ... the Savior of the world, the whole world.

Again, in Acts 5:31, Peter was standing before the high priest and the council ... they were part of the "Israel" about whom Peter was speaking at the time he told them Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him – Acts 5:31-32.

Again, brightfame52, "give" in Acts 5:31 is the Greek word didōmi

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:​
​
6. δίδωμι is joined with nouns denoting an act or an effect;​
​
...​
​
b. the noun denotes something to be done by him to whom it is said to be given: διδόναιτίνι μετάνοιαν, to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18;​


The high priest and the council rejected what God wanted to give and God allowed them to reject ... just as we read in Ez 33:11

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

The high priest and the council refused to turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways ...
.
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In the new spiritual birth, one of the things that happens, is that God exchanges the stony heart of the natural man for a fleshy heart that can be pricked to feel spiritual guilt.

Notice the different responses of the stony heart of the Jews in Acts 5:33 & Acts 7:54 compared to the fleshy heart of the Jews in Acts 2:37.
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
#747
Nov 21, 2020
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#747
rogerg said:
I don't. Is that a yes or a no?

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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Once a Sheep has been converted to the Truth, they wont stray away from it, they cant no longer be deceived. Jn 10:4-5

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

They wont be deceived with the false christs and gospels Matt 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#748
May 24, 2014
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#748
brightfame52 said:
Jesus is a Saviour unto Israel
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Jesus is THE Saviour unto THE World.

John 8:12
“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”

John 14:6
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
 
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rogerg

Well-known member
#749
Jul 13, 2021
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#749
brightfame52 said:
Once a Sheep has been converted to the Truth, they wont stray away from it, they cant no longer be deceived. Jn 10:4-5

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

They wont be deceived with the false christs and gospels Matt 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
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Yes definitely, brightfame52 -
they have a fundamental problem understanding/reconciling scripture, perceiving their salvation dependent upon themselves and not God, and also their faith dependent upon themselves and not God. Consequently, they are oblivious that God works within those He has chosen to bring forth the ends He has chosen for them.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#750
Jul 8, 2018
8,350
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#750
brightfame52 said:
Once a Sheep has been converted to the Truth, they wont stray away from it, they cant no longer be deceived. Jn 10:4-5

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

They wont be deceived with the false christs and gospels Matt 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Click to expand...

I certainly don't have all of the answers, but I have a lot of questions.

I understand that all of the born again, as they live their lives this side of heaven, do at times, commit sins. When they commit a sin, is not that turning away from God, until they repent?
 
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brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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#751
oyster67 said:
Jesus is THE Saviour unto THE World.

John 8:12
“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”

John 14:6
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
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That whole world is Israel. Jesus is Saviour to Israel Acts 13:23

Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
 
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brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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rogerg said:
Yes definitely, brightfame52 -
they have a fundamental problem understanding/reconciling scripture, perceiving their salvation dependent upon themselves and not God, and also their faith dependent upon themselves and not God. Consequently, they are oblivious that God works within those He has chosen to bring forth the ends He has chosen for them.
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Correct, all of Salvation is of God, from its commencement unto its consummation in Glory ! Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

He foreknew them according to their elective union with Christ[Eph 1:4] before the world began 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Foreordained is the same word for foreknew in Rom 8:29
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#753
May 24, 2014
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#753
brightfame52 said:
That whole world is Israel. Jesus is Saviour to Israel
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No, Israel is not the whole world. Jesus gave His life that anyone might freely come and receive everlasting life.

That is basic and fundamental Christianity.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
 
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brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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#754
oyster67 said:
No, Israel is not the whole world. Jesus gave His life that anyone might freely come and receive everlasting life.

That is basic and fundamental Christianity.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
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Yes Israel is the whole world in Salvation, and the world in John 3:16 is Israel, no not ethnic national Israel, but Elect Israel composed of different ethnicities.
 
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brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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#755
oyster67

Jesus gave His life that anyone might freely come and receive everlasting life.
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False , Jesus came to give eternal life only to them the Father gave Him in Election Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

My folk you believe a lie, you have been deceived.
 
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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#756
Mar 23, 2016
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#756
brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
excuse me???

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior ... the only begotten Son of the Father ... the Savior of the world, the whole world.
Click to expand...
Jesus is the Saviour unto Israel God's Elect!
Click to expand...
:rolleyes: ... it appears you esteem the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ to be insufficient to cover the sins of all descendants of Adam ...

1 John 2:2 And he [the Lord Jesus Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#757
Mar 23, 2016
6,857
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#757
brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
You say "So yes those being converted, turned by the Lord are active".


Are you saying that the person turns his/her heart?

2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it [their heart] shall turn [verb, active] to the Lord, the vail shall be taken [verb, passive] away.

A simple yes or no will do ... the addition of "those being converted, turned by the Lord" obscures whether or not you are in alignment with Scripture.

When you are drawn away from the Lord, do you turn back to Him once you realize you have strayed from Him? Again, a simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.
Click to expand...
Christ turns those He died for to God and from their sins.
Click to expand...
1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

When you sin, do you confess [your] sins as instructed in 1 John 1:9?
.
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
#758
Nov 21, 2020
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#758
reneweddaybyday said:
:rolleyes: ... it appears you esteem the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ to be insufficient to cover the sins of all descendants of Adam ...

1 John 2:2 And he [the Lord Jesus Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
.
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1 Jn 2:2 is Israel, God's Elect
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
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Nov 21, 2020
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#759
reneweddaybyday said:
1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

When you sin, do you confess [your] sins as instructed in 1 John 1:9?
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Jesus turned us from our sins that is His Role as Saviour!
 
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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#760
Mar 23, 2016
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#760
rogerg said:
reneweddaybyday said:
I'll ask you the same question I asked brightfame52 ...

When you are drawn away from the Lord, do you turn back to Him once you realize you have strayed from Him? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.
Click to expand...
I don't. Is that a yes or a no?
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:rolleyes: ... sounds like a "no" to me.




rogerg said:
[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Click to expand...
Again, rogerg, I'm not referring to salvation. There is no issue concerning salvation because you and I both agree that when a person is born again, he or she is a child of God ... belongs to God. God places His seal upon the born again one ... sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchase possession – Eph 1:13-14.

I am speaking of the moment by moment, day by day walk in this life ... the things we do which are not in alignment with who we are in the Lord Jesus Christ and which distract us from following Him. This does not affect our standing as a child of God. This does affect our fellowship with God ... our close walk with Him.

There is instruction in Scripture concerning our walk in this life ... things God tells us He will do ... things God tells us we are to do. And if you think God is going to do something He tells you to do, you are deceiving yourself. So when God tells you (as He does in 2 Cor 3:16) that when you turn [active verb] your heart to the Lord Jesus Christ, the veil shall be taken away [passive verb], you are to turn your heart to Him ... then the veil is removed.

The things God tells us He will do, He is absolutely faithful to do.

The things God tells us we are to do, we are sometimes not faithful. Any time we do something God tells us not to do ... or don't do something God tells us to do ... at that point, we are turned from God and the close fellowship is not in evidence in our lives and it may take us some time before we realize we've strayed from Him. When we finally realize we've turned from Him, we are to turn our hearts back to Him:

1 John 1:6-10 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


When we have broken fellowship with the Father and we turn to Him, confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and He cleanses us from all unrighteousness. At that point, fellowship is restored. :cool: ... and I'm talking about fellowship ... not sonship. Please learn the difference between salvation and fellowship. Don't conflate these two truths. It'll really bless you.
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