Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

ForestGreenCook · Apr 20, 2023

Our differences is in the lost sheep of the house of Israel. We both agree that, ultimately, all of spiritual Israel will be eternally delivered. Where we disagree is that I believe the lost sheep of the house of spiritual Israel have been born again, but they do not have the true understanding of the gospel, and are disobedient in preaching false doctrines, which includes almost all on this
forum. ( 1Tim 1:3 ).

You, on the other hand, do not believe that they are born again.

ForestGreenCook · Apr 20, 2023

rogerg said:

I do not agree with renewerdadayday in almost all of his theory, but this portion of his post #796, I agree with.

ForestGreenCook · Apr 20, 2023

brightfame52 said:

I would like to interject my thoughts concerning "the lost sheep of the house of [spiritual] Israel", which will ultimulty, repent and be delivered from their ignorance of the gospel.

I believe that the lost sheep, are born again, elect, and have the promise of an eternal inheritance, such as renewddaybyday, but do not have a full knowledge of the gospel, and have been deceived into preaching false doctrines. ( 1 Tim 1:3 ). ( 1 Tim 2:4 ), (Rom 10:1-3) (Matt 7:13 ). saved=delivered here in time.

The "very elect" is the remnant of the house of {spiritual} Israel, that cannot be deceived ( Zeph 3:13 ). ( the very elect, the remnant, Matt 7:14 ).

rogerg · Apr 20, 2023

ForestGreenCook said:

Correct. True faith in Christ is given by God through the Holy Spirt to those born again so, they cannot, not have it, nor can it be lost.
As the verses that I believe I posted previously say (which I've posted again below), God will not allow a falling away of faith in Christ for those born-again. Unfortunately, and as you didn't specify what had in mind when you said, "do not have the true understanding of the gospel and are disobedient in preaching false doctrines", I don't know whether I agree with you or not. If you meant they were born again yet didn't know/believe it Christ as their Saviour in all ways, or that they fell away from that faith, then I would have to disagree with you: true faith is not of man's doing but of God's. However, if you meant other ancillary doctrine, apart from a faith in Christ, I could agree, because all born-again are continually learning/refining their understanding/perceptions of the doctrines of Christ and salvation, and so no one knows it all, nor has it all down pat to include those of 1 Tim 1:3.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

rogerg · Apr 20, 2023

ForestGreenCook said:

It will probably be easier, if you haven't already done so, to read my reply #799

ForestGreenCook · Apr 20, 2023

rogerg said:

Correct. True faith in Christ is given by God through the Holy Spirt to those born again so, they cannot, not have it, nor can it be lost.
As the verses that I believe I posted previously say (which I've posted again below), God will not allow a falling away of faith in Christ for those born-again. Unfortunately, and as you didn't specify what had in mind when you said, "do not have the true understanding of the gospel and are disobedient in preaching false doctrines", I don't know whether I agree with you or not. If you meant they were born again yet didn't know/believe it Christ as their Saviour in all ways, or that they fell away from that faith, then I would have to disagree with you: true faith is not of man's doing but of God's. However, if you meant other ancillary doctrine, apart from a faith in Christ, I could agree, because all born-again are continually learning/refining their understanding/perceptions of the doctrines of Christ and salvation, and so no one knows it all, nor has it all down pat to include those of 1 Tim 1:3.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

I think that I have seen where you think that believing, as a work requirement, is not the cause of ones eternal salvation, If I am wrong, correct me.

2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself ( Eph 2:5 ).

rogerg · Apr 20, 2023

ForestGreenCook said:

I believe that to believe is both a work and it is God's work. To those who have it, it came from their salvation.
I don't understand your point with 2 Tim 2:13 or Eph 2:5. Please elaborate.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 22, 2023

rogerg said:

You flat out deny what is written in Scripture:

James 1:

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Every time a born again one sins, it is due to his or her having been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ to walk according to the flesh.

You refuse to acknowledge that there is a difference between salvation (which is eternal) and the day-to-day fellowship between the believer and God.

rogerg said:

... so when a born again one sins, that is a "byproduct of that salvation" ... it's not that the born again one has been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ through his own lust, and enticed???
.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 22, 2023

rogerg said:

false statement. The verse clearly states they followed and were hindered in their walk with the Lord because of it. Does that affect salvation? No. It affects the fellowship and communion with the Lord in the day to day life of the believer. That you turn a blind eye to this truth does not make it any less truth.

rogerg said:

Read the whole chapter, rogerg. In Galatians 5, the born again believer is encouraged to walk according to the Spirit (who he or she is in the Lord Jesus Christ) in contrast to walking according to the flesh (who he or she was in Adam):

Galatians 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

so again the issue is the believer being drawn away from the Lord to walk according to the flesh.

rogerg said:

Galatians 5 mentions nothing about "their desire to observe holy days". Gal 5:2 mentions circumcision ... as does Gal 5:3, Gal 5:6 and Gal 5:11.

rogerg said:

That is written in Galatians 4 ... we were discussing what Paul wrote in Galatians 5 concerning those who came in and taught that the believers must be circumcised and thereby hindered the walk of the believers.

Galatians 5 contrasts the walk in the Spirit (the new man) with the walk in the flesh (the old man).

rogerg said:

yes ... and when a born again believer is walking according to the flesh, he or she has turned from the Lord. He or she has been drawn away from the Lord and is now walking according to the flesh where the lusts (desires) of the flesh distract him or her.

The moment the believer realizes he or she has been drawn away, the believer is to turn his or her heart to the Lord ... the Lord will be there with arms wide open to welcome the believer back into the fold.

The believer is told to put off the old man and to put on the new man.

rogerg said:

That is my whole point, rogerg. Peter and Barnabas were still born again believers, but they had been drawn away from the Lord to walk according to the flesh.

Here is what Paul tells us:

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Their walk was affected ... not their salvation. They were still born again believers, but they had strayed from truth ... they had been drawn away from the Lord and they walked not uprightly.

rogerg said:

I never said that it was. Because you conflate salvation with the day to day walk with God, you keep accusing me of making claims I never stated.

rogerg said:

Those verses show Peter had been drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ ... he was walking according to the flesh ... and it affected Barnabas.
.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 22, 2023

brightfame52 said:

Quit ripping verses from the context within which they are placed by the Author of Scripture.

After the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (Matt 24:15) is seen ...

Matthew 24:

23 Then [after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel] if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

The true believer is not going to be deceived by false prophets when they say lo, here is Christ because the true believer studies God's Word and the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance that which is written in Scripture concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, as you can see from your stated verse, there shall be great signs and wonders performed by these false prophets and many will believe them.

brightfame52 said:

I have stated over and over again in this thread that the salvation of the born again one is not affected if/when he or she is drawn away from the Lord.

I have repeatedly stated that when a believer is drawn away from the Lord, it affects the fellowship of the believer ... the day to day, ongoing, close communion with God.

If you and rogerg continue to conflate salvation with fellowship, you are going to continue to misrepresent what I have stated due to your complete and utter failure to comprehend fellowship vs. salvation.

brightfame52 said:

Notice in vs 28, John encourages the believer to abide in Him.

The word "abide" in vs 28 is present tense, active – meaning the believer is the doer of the action, imperative – expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the One commanding.

There would be no need to encourage the believer in the active imperative if there was no chance the believer could be drawn away.

brightfame52 said:

... this is what I have been telling you and rogerg, but you both insist I am saying the believer somehow loses salvation ... which I have never stated, although you and rogerg continue to claim that is what I am saying. both you and rogerg need to learn how to read with comprehension.
.

fredoheaven · Apr 22, 2023

"Quit ripping verses from the context within which they are placed by the Author of Scripture."

Very true as I observed from the very beginning how Calvinist ripped-off the Bible.

brightfame52 · Apr 22, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

Quit ripping verses from the context within which they are placed by the Author of Scripture.

After the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (Matt 24:15) is seen ...

Matthew 24:

23 Then [after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel] if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

The true believer is not going to be deceived by false prophets when they say lo, here is Christ because the true believer studies God's Word and the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance that which is written in Scripture concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, as you can see from your stated verse, there shall be great signs and wonders performed by these false prophets and many will believe them.

I have stated over and over again in this thread that the salvation of the born again one is not affected if/when he or she is drawn away from the Lord.

I have repeatedly stated that when a believer is drawn away from the Lord, it affects the fellowship of the believer ... the day to day, ongoing, close communion with God.

If you and rogerg continue to conflate salvation with fellowship, you are going to continue to misrepresent what I have stated due to your complete and utter failure to comprehend fellowship vs. salvation.

Notice in vs 28, John encourages the believer to abide in Him.

The word "abide" in vs 28 is present tense, active – meaning the believer is the doer of the action, imperative – expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the One commanding.

There would be no need to encourage the believer in the active imperative if there was no chance the believer could be drawn away.

... this is what I have been telling you and rogerg, but you both insist I am saying the believer somehow loses salvation ... which I have never stated, although you and rogerg continue to claim that is what I am saying. both you and rogerg need to learn how to read with comprehension.
.

The fellowship of a believer may be affected plenty of times, nothing to do with being deceived away from the Gospel to a false Gospel.

brightfame52 · Apr 22, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

Quit ripping verses from the context within which they are placed by the Author of Scripture.

After the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (Matt 24:15) is seen ...

Matthew 24:

23 Then [after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel] if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

The true believer is not going to be deceived by false prophets when they say lo, here is Christ because the true believer studies God's Word and the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance that which is written in Scripture concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, as you can see from your stated verse, there shall be great signs and wonders performed by these false prophets and many will believe them.

I have stated over and over again in this thread that the salvation of the born again one is not affected if/when he or she is drawn away from the Lord.

I have repeatedly stated that when a believer is drawn away from the Lord, it affects the fellowship of the believer ... the day to day, ongoing, close communion with God.

If you and rogerg continue to conflate salvation with fellowship, you are going to continue to misrepresent what I have stated due to your complete and utter failure to comprehend fellowship vs. salvation.

Notice in vs 28, John encourages the believer to abide in Him.

The word "abide" in vs 28 is present tense, active – meaning the believer is the doer of the action, imperative – expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the One commanding.

There would be no need to encourage the believer in the active imperative if there was no chance the believer could be drawn away.

... this is what I have been telling you and rogerg, but you both insist I am saying the believer somehow loses salvation ... which I have never stated, although you and rogerg continue to claim that is what I am saying. both you and rogerg need to learn how to read with comprehension.
.

The problem however you have and others is you conflate the Gospel and it's Doctrines into Calvinism, if you reject Calvinism as in the Doctrines of Grace you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace. That is unbelief!

rogerg · Apr 22, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

Oh boy - your interpretations/conclusions are what happens when you use your own definition of biblical words instead
of referring back to the Bible to let it function as its own dictionary. You confuse and conflate doctrine because you do not understand
fundamental biblical principles, because you do not correctly define its words, the most important doctrine of which, is that everything comes through/by Christ, but is only given to His elect, not to everyone.

You don't even realize what you've posted or quoted above: the "temptation" spoken of is in being tempted to trust in one's works and righteousness for salvation and not in Christ's. Do you see the "Blessed is the man" part of the verse that YOU posted? It means that those who do not trust in their works, do not, ONLY BECAUSE THEY HAD FIRST BEEN BLESSED BY GOD - it is not of themselves - everyone not so blessed trusts in their works. However, that blessing is only to the elect/saved/born again. And thereby, the elect have fellowship with God because by God they have they been placed into the light.
And by the way, I do not refuse to acknowledge any such thing insofar as it is important to try to live by the moral directions of the Bible, but we as still (living) in the flesh, do not do them perfectly, nor have I ever said otherwise, but neither does that affect salvation. God definitely chastises His elect who behave in ways not pleasing to Him - but in doing so, it brings them closer to Him,
it does not push them away.

Here, read these verses, slowly and closely and think about what they're saying. They tell us clearly that it is only the elect who are called by God unto fellowship. It happens NOT of a person's doing, but of God's.

[1Co 1:6-9 KJV]
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

reneweddaybyday said:

You obviously don't know what the Sin is. The Sin is to have trust in works for salvation instead of in Christ's finished works. You just are unable to bring yourself to believe, trust and rest, fully, completely and solely, in Christ as Saviour, and therefore, your natural desire is to fall back to the works of a person.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 22, 2023

fredoheaven said:

I don’t know that calvinists are the only ones who have cornered the market on lifting a verse (or verses) from the context.

It's so important to understand words within verses, verses within immediate context, immediate context within remote context ... and all Scripture is to fit together with no contradiction.

I hope and pray, fredoheaven, that you've been well ... seems quite a while since you and I have discussed Scripture.
.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 22, 2023

brightfame52 said:

Since I have I never stated what you claim, you raise a moot point.

brightfame52 said:

you can follow calvinism all you want ... that is your prerogative

I follow the Lord Jesus Christ ... that is not "unbelief!"

.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 22, 2023

rogerg said:

oh rogerg ... you've really gone off the rails. Of course I realize what I have posted and quoted.

That you disagree does not mean I "don't even realize what [I've] posted or quoted above".

rogerg said:

nope ... read the verses again, rogerg. It is clear that the believer is being tempted/drawn away to sin:

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin ...

rogerg said:

... rogerg, the verse is talking about the trials and temptations we all go through in this life. The whole chapter starts off with a verse which tells us to count it all joy when we fall into divers temptations – James 1:2.

James 1:12 then tells us blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

When we successfully endure the trials of this life (which we can only do as we abide in the Lord Jesus Christ), we will receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised.

However, the Author of Scripture then goes on to tell us that we can be drawn away from the Lord when we are tested and tried:

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

What is written in James 1:12 (where the believer successfully endures his or her trial) is contrasted with James 1:13-15.

And please note, it is not a sin to be tempted. Scripture tells us the Lord Jesus Christ was tempted in all points like as we are yet without sin (Heb 4:15).

The sin occurs when lust hath conceived (James 1:15) ... i.e. when we allow the desires of our flesh to influence us to the point of being drawn away from the Lord (Who is our safe refuge) and then act on the desires of our flesh. At that point, we have put back on the "old man" (which we have already been instructed to put off). And please note, this affects our fellowship ... our close relationship with the Lord ... not our salvation. Sin results in broken fellowship.

rogerg said:

you and brightfame52 keep bringing up this strawman concerning salvation when what we are discussing is fellowship ... the ongoing, day-to-day relationship the born again one is to enjoy in this life. The Lord Jesus Christ was crucified so that the believer could have peace with God. Quit conflating salvation with fellowship ... understand that fellowship with the Father and with the Lord Jesus Christ results in the fullness of joy the believer experiences in this life ... while we are awaiting our eternal abode ... the new heaven and new earth.

rogerg said:

I have no problem with those verses. And I know that the Father and the Son are faithful to do all They promise to do.

We, on the other hand, are not so faithful. Look at the next couple of verses in 1 Cor 1:

1 Corinthians 1:

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Paul reproved the believers because they were following men rather than the Lord Jesus Christ. This truth is reiterated in 1 Cor 3:

1 Corinthians 3:

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

The believers at Corinth were divided ... one said "I follow Paul" ... another said "I follow Apollos". Sadly, we see the same thing going on in our day and time.

Instead of following Paul or Apollos or __________ (fill in the blank), the believer is to follow the Lord Jesus Christ ... and the preacher/teacher is to point the congregation to the Lord Jesus Christ not to himself or any other man.

rogerg said:

I will repeat my reply to you the last time you told me I "do not realize what sin is"

reneweddaybyday said:

rogerg said:

All you have done in creating your false premise is place yourself in a scenario wherein you can claim that because you "trust in Christ's finished works" you never sin.

God's Word tells us the born again believer can overcome sin because the Lord Jesus Christ has given us the victory over sin. But we are only victorious as we abide in the Lord.

God's Word also tells us the born again believer can be drawn away from the Lord Jesus Christ by the desires of the flesh.

You can argue with Scripture all you want ... and you can claim that you never sin because of the construct you have devised and thereby deceive yourself and make Him a liar (1 John 1:8; 1 John 1:10).

I will trust God's Word, thank Him for holding me close, and if/when I do stumble, I will confess my sins and He is faithful and just to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

rogerg said:

... another construct of your own making. Just because I am able to comprehend the difference between salvation and fellowship does not mean I do not "believe, trust and rest, fully, completely and solely, in Christ as Saviour".
.

Cameron143 · Apr 22, 2023

Have you guys considered starting the R and R thread (Roger and Renewed). Actually, better not. You would argue over who the first R was for. Just ignore.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 22, 2023

Cameron143 said:

ha-ha ... rog can have 1st r ... or rog can have 2nd r ... whatever rog wants ...
.

brightfame52 · Apr 23, 2023

renewed

Then its a moot point, the promise of the Gospel is the Elect shall never perish or fall away unto perdition, never that they wont sin and come under Fatherly Chastening out of Gods Love for them.

No you dont follow the Jesus of scripture and at the same time scoff His Gospel Truth which you relegate to being of a man. You are in unbelief

Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

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