Christ kept the Law of Moses, so....

John 20

3 Therefore Peter and the other disciple went out, and they went toward the tomb. 4 They both ran together. The other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. 5 Stooping and looking in, he saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he didn’t enter in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and entered into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying, 7 and the cloth that had been on his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but rolled up in a place by itself. 8 So then the other disciple who came first to the tomb also entered in, and he saw and believed.

Many highly respected researchers have studied the Shroud in depth and concluded that the image is beyond explanation and not a creation of man. Some were even converted after their extensive research. The Shroud is the most studied artifact in history.

Then why did Paul have need of it (Act 25:8)?

If I may...

What Scripture ACTUALLY says is -

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Heb 8:13

No mention whatsoever of it soon disappearing. I'm not subscribing to the Old Covenant (the Mosaic Covenant) here. I am redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and have drunk of the blood of the New Covenant - Justified by Grace through Faith, that being a gift from God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. BUT, it is important to note that the writer of Hebrews is not saying, in effect, that because the Old Covenant is going to disappear that it is imperative that we accept the New Covenant. The imperative is primarily this - that God insists that we accept the New Covenant. So, the argument that because the Old Covenant 'disappeared' and, as those who hold to this argument contend, along with it the Law also disappeared, is unfounded. Additionally, the Law, as an instrument, is unaffected by the status of the Old Covenant since it is not dependent upon the Old Covenant. Sin was in the world and was punished before the Old Covenant (eg. the Sabbath is observed in Exodus 16). God's Law was codified into a written document under Moses. This written Law was added to the covenant and served a purpose in that context. Even if the Old Covenant is abolished there would be no reason to conclude that the Law is also abolished.

I'll stop you right there. Unless you are a scholar in biblical languages, you have no authority to toss one translation and claim that another has the "ACTUAL" words.

Quartodeciman said:

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Heb 8:13

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Um, "disappear" is a synonym for "vanish".

Wrong. The Law is integral to the Old Covenant. They are functionally one and the same.

Wrong again. Here is the biblical evidence:

Exodus 19:3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[a] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” 7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the Lord had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.

Exodus 24:3 When Moses went and told the people all the Lord’s words and laws, they responded with one voice, “Everything the Lord has said we will do.” 4 Moses then wrote down everything the Lord had said. He got up early the next morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain and set up twelve stone pillars representing the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 Then he sent young Israelite men, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as fellowship offerings to the Lord. 6 Moses took half of the blood and put it in bowls, and the other half he splashed against the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.” 8 Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

The sections in between (chapters 20 through 23) are the words of the covenant. The rest of Exodus and Leviticus are an unpacking of the covenant.

Watched a few recent vids on YT about the Shroud of Turin. There have been a number of recent developments that further prove the Shroud is His burial cloth. The carbon dating question was answered by a number of them explaining how the Shroud was repaired a couple times which can account for the incorrect date they came up with.

There is also history for the Shroud showing it was in Constantinople for a long time till the 4th crusade when it made it's way to France. The man who ended up in possession of it when it started being displayed again around 1360 was married to a daughter of a high ranking officer who fought in Constantinople. They did not admit how they came to own it.

The Shroud was displayed every Friday when it was in Constantinople for a long time.

Without making a long list of the many recent developments the various vids explained, there is no doubt that the Shroud is His burial cloth. Recently someone even identified that His Name is on the Shroud in Greek as if He was tagged by the Romans at some point. There is also the evidence that it has x-ray features as well as the 3d and hologram evidence.

No one has come up with a valid explanation on how His image was placed on the cloth. They certainly cannot explain the x-ray and 3d and hologram evidence in the image. There is no way it could be a forgery with all the evidence that is on the cloth.

His blood is on the cloth and is type AB. That matches the type on the Sudarium of Oviedo which is the head covering cloth that is also mentioned in the Gospels. The History of that cloth was known from the beginning. The blood stains on that cloth match the ones on the Shroud. So the 2 cloths prove each other although they were not together since the first century.

There are many vids worth watching about the Shroud of Turin that attest to it's authenticity.

Your post is a classic example of the kind of equivocating necessary to attempt the argument that the Law is not relevant to the Christian.

You: "There was a time before the Law".
Response: No. There wasn't. There WAS however a time before the Law was codified and "added" to the Mosaic Covenant, but, by no means did it not exist before that time. Sin was in the world before Exodus 20 and men were expected to know that it was sin. For example, God's Sabbath day (which would become codified as the 4th Commandment) was being kept prior to Exodus 20 - see chapter 16.

You: "If the Law were eternal, it would have to pre-exist Adam."
Response: So what? (Psalm 119:89).

You: "Hebrews 8:13 says, "By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."
Response: Ah, no. It says - "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." No mention of obsolescence. And besides, and obsolescence of the Old Covenant would not make the Law obsolete since the instrument of the Law pre-existed the Mosaic Law and was simply "added" to the Covenant.

You: "It is clear that the covenant under Moses is no longer in effect."
Response: See previous Response above.



"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Mat 7:21-23)

The word "iniquity" here literally means lawlessness.

I have already addressed your attempt to correct me merely by the use of a different translation. It's not going to fly. I'm not interested in repeating myself.

Another point I find very hard to dispute is that in Psalms we read KJV Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

But we read in KJV Heb_7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

So if the law is perfect, it is no wonder the LORD/YHWH said "Do not add to or diminish it" (See
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.)

And even Jesus said "Observe to do it" (See
Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.)

The Moses' seat was a stone carved chair that the reader of Torah used. While sitting in Moses' seat, the reader was only allowed to read the Torah (first five books of the Bible) word for word. No changing by adding or diminishing any of the words. Therefore what Jesus said was the same as "the law is perfect - do not change it".

We know the law does not save a lost soul, and that one must believe that Jesus came to rescue the divorced House of Israel and bring back both House of Judah and House of Israel into the kingdom. His disciples knew this was Jesus' mission, for they asked him before His ascension Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

How does the LORD implant His law into our hearts? With the gift of the Holy Spirit.

At Mt. Sinai after the Exodus, they arrived and 50 days after Passover in Egypt was Shavuot/Pentecost. This was the day the Israelites received the LAW.

After Jesus' passion and resurrection and ascension, the 50th day after Passover was Shavuot/Pentecost and on this day the Holy Spirit was given in mass distrubution.

In the future, I strongly believe, that on a Shavuot/Pentecost will be the rapture. Unfortunately, not many Christians know how to KNOW WHEN THAT DAY IS and will not be watching and ready. They will be like the five foolish virgins who go out to buy for themselves on a day that forbids buying or selling.

Thank you for your arbitrary rules. Keep them to yourself. I have the evidence to prove the point. Besides, your arbitrary rule would have to apply equally to your own post and therefore is self-defeating.


Irrelevent. "will soon disappear. " is not equivalent to "ready to vanish away". "Will" denotes definite futurity. "Ready" denotes present state of being only. The writer of Hebrews in 8:13 is telling the reader that the Old Covenant is in a present weakened state of being, and that being due to one of the partners in the covenant having betrayed that covenant so thoroughly that it is presently in a state of being almost completely broken. Big difference.


I'd be happy to agree if you could demonstrate it.

Dino246 said:

Exodus 19

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Just because the Covenant contains commandments it does not follow that the commandments are the covenant. The commandments alone are not and cannot be a covenant since a covenant necessarily is an agreement. If God simply gave commandments to Israel without an agreement this would not constitute a covenant. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Here is an agreement:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." (Exo 19:5-6)

"And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient." (Exo 24:7)

And, here is a commandment:

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." (Exo 20:8)


Thus, the agreement incorporates the instrument of the Law but it is, by necessity, not the Law itself. God's people were aware of sin prior to the Old Covenant (eg. see Exo 16) and are still aware of it under the New Covenant (Act 25:8).

I made a serious mistake in the previous post. The 50th day is not calculated from Passover in the year of Christ's passion and resurrection. It's not too complicated, but does require knowing that the Wave Sheath Day starts the counting. Christ died on a Wednesday and He presented Himself to God in heaven on the preceding Sunday at the same time the priests were doing the Wave Sheath offering of Barley.

I didn't claim the verse you posted was wrong; you claimed the verse I posted was wrong, which leaves you still in the wrong.

Then you simply refuse to discuss the subject.

Ok.

Oh, Amen Brother. The Holy Spirit has taught me the same thing from Scripture.

1) Christ dies on Wednesday at 3pm (at even) on the very day of the Passover.
2) Christ descends into the lower regions, the belly of the earth, and rises three days and three nights later fulfilling the prophecy of Jonah, I make that 3pm on the weekly Sabbath. He doesn't present Himself to His disciples until the morning of the following day, probably spending the night in prayer.
3) He speaks with Mary near the Tomb and tells her not to touch Him because He has yet to present Himself to the Father as the sheaf of Firstfruits (Lev 23:11) on the very day that the Feast of Firstfruits which is also the 1st day of the counting of the Omer.
4) On the Fiftieth day after He became the Firstfruits, on the Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost), the last day of the counting of the Omer (Lev 23), He brings in the wave loaves (Lev 23:17) which represent the harvest of saved people on that day (Act 2:41).

Since the Feast calendar points to the redemption plan of God it seems an imperative that the final harvest (the rapture) ought to occur on the final day of harvest - Shavuot (Pentecost).

I like what you're putting down here Grace911.

It's what the Bible says, until you can prove otherwise.

Thank you for your kind words and yes, the Holy Spirit reveals Truth. I have narrow vision and the whole Bible is about the marriage contract from Genesis to Revelation. It how the House of Israel was divorced, scattered and now being regathered and reentering the Covenant through the death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua/Jesus. I didn't unlearn the teachings from my youth in a protestant church and family until I heard a sermon about the Sabbath not being Sunday and then from there, my understanding became like a moving freight train on the fast rails. I look forward to every Sabbath meeting with other believers who also have deeper understanding. I am looking forward to tomorrow as I finish up the week and prepare for the Sabbath.

The answer to that question belongs with the Father (Acts 1:7). I will add that those who carefully study Scripture and understand the times can see the various prophecies and commandments being fulfilled with the passage of time. As I understand the times Isa 65:25 is yet to be fulfilled but Lev 23:5 has been fulfilled. Likewise, Dan 9:27 is yet to be fulfilled whereas 9:26 has been fulfilled.

To give you some idea of where I think we are at, I believe we're very close to Dan 7:8 being fulfilled.

That's a beautiful testimony. Hallelujah!
Similar for me. I was hoodwinked by Lutheranism for 18 years and my life was a mess. The Lord told me to leave because He had something else for me. I wanted badly to go to Bible college. I asked the Lord three times for this and three times He told me very definitely - No. Since that time the Holy Spirit has been teaching me. I can relate to the freight train metaphor you've used. The Spirit telling me which things to read and which things to steer clear of.

The Lord Bless you and Keep you.

Shabbat Shalom.

I disagree. On the contrary, Scripture is clear that Christ kept the Passover with His disciples (Luke 22) and that Paul, making specific reference to Christ's Words used during the Passover, understood that this Feast would continue 1st Cor 11:26.

No eucharist mentioned.

Hence Paul could say - "... let us keep the Feast..." (1st Cor 5:8). Which he most certainly did (Act 25:8).

Perhaps you could point me to the Scriptures that you are convinced are instructing us to observe the eucharist?

With someone who thinks one translation is "truth" while another is "not truth", yes.