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selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
#61
(Berean Standard Bible)

Revelation 19:

1After this I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude in heaven, shouting:
“Hallelujah!a
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God!
2For His judgments are true and just.
He has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality.
He has avenged the blood of His servants
that was poured out by her hand.”
3And a second time they called out:
“Hallelujah!
Her smoke rises forever and ever.”
4And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne, saying:
“Amen, Hallelujah!”
5Then a voice came from the throne, saying:
“Praise our God,
all you who serve Him,
and those who fear Him,
small and great alike!”
The Marriage of the Lamb
6And I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude, like the rushing of many waters, and like a mighty rumbling of thunder, crying out:
“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our Godb the Almighty reigns.
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give Him the glory.
For the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and His bride has made herself ready.
8She was given clothing of fine linen,
bright and pure.”
For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#62
you responded to my post with it, and I wondered if you were claiming that's what i meant, or that you just added your thoughts to a post you quoted, that happened to be me?
Obeying the works of the Old Testament law was to remove (remission) the guilt of sin.

Hebrews 9:22
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and with out the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
#63
(Berean Standard Bible)

Revelation 19:

1After this I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude in heaven, shouting:
“Hallelujah!a
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God!
2For His judgments are true and just.
He has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality.
He has avenged the blood of His servants
that was poured out by her hand.”
3And a second time they called out:
“Hallelujah!
Her smoke rises forever and ever.”
4And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne, saying:
“Amen, Hallelujah!”
5Then a voice came from the throne, saying:
“Praise our God,
all you who serve Him,
and those who fear Him,
small and great alike!”
The Marriage of the Lamb
6And I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude, like the rushing of many waters, and like a mighty rumbling of thunder, crying out:
“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our Godb the Almighty reigns.
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give Him the glory.
For the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and His bride has made herself ready.
8She was given clothing of fine linen,
brightand pure.”
For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints.
That's not a good translation. The righteousness that is pure white is the righteousness of Jesus.
That's why Paul in philippians 3 says...being found in Him, having no righteousness of my own. Our righteousness is described in Isaiah 64:6.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#64
(Berean Standard Bible)

Revelation 19:

1After this I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude in heaven, shouting:
“Hallelujah!a
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God!
2For His judgments are true and just.
He has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality.
He has avenged the blood of His servants
that was poured out by her hand.”
3And a second time they called out:
“Hallelujah!
Her smoke rises forever and ever.”
4And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne, saying:
“Amen, Hallelujah!”
5Then a voice came from the throne, saying:
“Praise our God,
all you who serve Him,
and those who fear Him,
small and great alike!”
The Marriage of the Lamb
6And I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude, like the rushing of many waters, and like a mighty rumbling of thunder, crying out:
“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our Godb the Almighty reigns.
7Let us rejoice and be glad
and give Him the glory.
For the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and His bride has made herself ready.
8She was given clothing of fine linen,
bright and pure.”
For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints.
These scriptures will not work here. Their minds are shut to anything other than faith alone regeneration theology.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#65
That's not a good translation. The righteousness that is pure white is the righteousness of Jesus.
That's why Paul in philippians 3 says...being found in Him, having no righteousness of my own. Our righteousness is described in Isaiah 64:6.
That's not a good translation. The righteousness that is pure white is the righteousness of Jesus.
That's why Paul in philippians 3 says...being found in Him, having no righteousness of my own. Our righteousness is described in Isaiah 64:6.
"That's not a good translation."

I wish I had a nickel for every time I have heard, "That's not a good translation." excuse.

Okay, what is a "good translation" of this verse?

Make sure you use your faith alone regeneration theology filter before picking.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
#66
"That's not a good translation."

I wish I had a nickel for every time I have heard, "That's not a good translation." excuse.

Okay, what is a "good translation" of this verse?

Make sure you use your faith alone regeneration theology filter before picking.
Just use the KJV and you will see that it is speaking of righteousness that one has been clothed in and not righteous acts.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#67
Where in what you presented states that they are earning salvation by fulfilling these commands?
VI. The Necessity of Baptism
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Quoted from The Catechism of the Catholic Church

But the Lord did not say any such thing if His words are properly understood.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,218
1,614
113
Midwest
#68
Acts of obedience are not acts of merit. This is not a hard concept to grasp.
Not very difficult if properly 'clarified' - ie:

Acts of righteousness are not acts of 'meriting' salvation (Grace Through faith), but
are 'acts of merit' for "receiving rewards," Correct?

Amen.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
#69
Not very difficult if properly 'clarified' - ie:

Acts of righteousness are not acts of 'meriting' salvation (Grace Through faith), but
are 'acts of merit' for "receiving rewards," Correct?

Amen.
If they are necessary acts to ascribe to a certain condition, they are by definition meritorious.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#70
Not very difficult if properly 'clarified' - ie:

Acts of righteousness are not acts of 'meriting' salvation (Grace Through faith), but
are 'acts of merit' for "receiving rewards," Correct?

Amen.
That is not what I wrote.

I don't even know how to respond to your question.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#71
If they are necessary acts to ascribe to a certain condition, they are by definition meritorious.
You are but grasping at straws.

Faith is a "necessary act to ascribe to a certain condition". Does this make faith an act of merit?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
#72
You are but grasping at straws.

Faith is a "necessary act to ascribe to a certain condition". Does this make faith an act of merit?
Faith is not an act. Faith is an estate. Either you believe or you do not. Faith comes by hearing. Hearing comes by the word of God.

If faith came by baptism you might convince me.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#73
VI. The Necessity of Baptism
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Quoted from The Catechism of the Catholic Church

But the Lord did not say any such thing if His words are properly understood.
Come on now, you know the verse.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

That sounds necessary to me.

Let me guess:

I am not properly understanding it or it's a bad translation.
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
1,055
447
83
#74
Come on now, you know the verse.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

That sounds necessary to me.

Let me guess:

I am not properly understanding it or it's a bad translation.
The "condemned" are the people who don't believe (faith)... yet some condemn those who don't get baptized, why is that?
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#75
Faith is not an act. Faith is an estate. Either you believe or you do not. Faith comes by hearing. Hearing comes by the word of God.

If faith came by baptism you might convince me.
"If faith came by baptism you might convince me."

This has nothing to do with the issue at hand. This is not about baptism. It is about the charge that certain churches believe they are earning their salvation by fulfilling acts of obedience.

You are simply attempting to muddy the waters.
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
2,516
939
113
#76
This is not a rhetorical question, but a question seeking information.

Can anyone direct me to a church, a minister, a denomination, a speaker, an author, or anyone else that preach salvation by works? I would like to know what they actually say so I may judge their positions based on their own words.

I will follow up on as many as I can.
First that come to mind are LDS JW SDA
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#77
The "condemned" are the people who don't believe (faith)... yet some condemn those who don't get baptized, why is that?
The condemned?

What about the saved, that should be the focus.

There are only two types of people in the world, the saved and the condemned.

Jesus said the:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (Type A)
whoever does not believe will be condemned.
(Type B)

So what again is your point about the condemned?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
#78
"If faith came by baptism you might convince me."

This has nothing to do with the issue at hand. This is not about baptism. It is about the charge that certain churches believe they are earning their salvation by fulfilling acts of obedience.

You are simply attempting to muddy the waters.
Not at all. I'm trying to rescue you out of the muddy waters.
Is salvation predicated on baptism? If no, one can have salvation apart from it. Do you believe someone can be saved apart from baptism?
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#79
Just use the KJV and you will see that it is speaking of righteousness that one has been clothed in and not righteous acts.
This is the text:

8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Oops! This is the NKJV. Sorry wrong filter.

BTW the KJV version does not change the meaning of the verse.

"Her" is still the pronoun and the "of" still refers to her righteousness.

Are you a KJV only or just if it fits the issue at hand?
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#80
Not at all. I'm trying to rescue you out of the muddy waters.
Is salvation predicated on baptism? If no, one can have salvation apart from it. Do you believe someone can be saved apart from baptism?
I will not go down this muddy rabbit hole with you. Have you forgotten what the OP is about?