Requesting thoughts on what a pastor said in church today...
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Colossians 1:13-14
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom
of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Micah 7:18-19
Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance?
He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. He will again have compassion
on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.
Psalm 86:5
For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you.
Psalm 130:3-5
If You, O LORD, kept track of iniquities, then who, O Lord, could stand? 4But with You there is forgiveness,
so that You may be feared. 5I wait for the LORD; my soul does wait, and in His word I put my hope.
1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Acts 13:36-38
For when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep. But the One whom God
raised from the dead did not see decay. His body was buried with his fathers and saw decay. Therefore
let it be known to you, brothers, that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through
Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Luke 24:47
And that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed
in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
1 John 2:12
I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake.
Ephesians 1:7-8
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses,
according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Romans 4:7-8
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are
covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom
of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Micah 7:18-19
Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance?
He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. He will again have compassion
on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.
Psalm 86:5
For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you.
Psalm 130:3-5
If You, O LORD, kept track of iniquities, then who, O Lord, could stand? 4But with You there is forgiveness,
so that You may be feared. 5I wait for the LORD; my soul does wait, and in His word I put my hope.
1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Acts 13:36-38
For when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep. But the One whom God
raised from the dead did not see decay. His body was buried with his fathers and saw decay. Therefore
let it be known to you, brothers, that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through
Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Luke 24:47
And that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed
in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
1 John 2:12
I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake.
Ephesians 1:7-8
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses,
according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Romans 4:7-8
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are
covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
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Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'll make enough time to read through all the responses. For now though, a few comments on a couple of posts...
~~~
I literally brought the verse up and addressed it thoroughly in the first post towards the end since I claimed to my stepfather that it actually supports the point I was making. You must've missed it.
~~~
I appreciate the responses of related verses you put up across several posts. As far as I can tell, God is expressing forgiveness and mercy in them towards the sinner, not the sin.
~~~
Haha, I have to be honest when I say I'm don't see a difference between "sins" and "sin" in the context of this topic. I'll keep chewing over it though. With that said, I don't remember if the pastor used the singular or plural version of the word.
~~~
It seems that simple and straight forward to me, but apparently there are others who disagree. I mean, if God decided to just miracle our sins away with forgiveness of them, why did Jesus have to die? That tells me that He forgives people, but He deals with sin (through the penalty of death). Thanks for the warm welcome.
~~~
I'm not really sure if you're addressing the topic being raised, and if so, I'm not sure exactly what you see as the point of disagreement between us.
~~~
OK, I have to come back later to read more of your post beyond where I snipped your response (and the other posts from others I haven't read yet after it), but I discussed the discussion I had with my stepfather the next day with my wonderful wife, and she came up with five more bible passages involving God and forgiveness.
We looked up each one to read exactly what the text says, and for the first four it is clear that God is expressing forgiveness for the person and not the sin as all the verses in my first post show.
However, the fifth passage she brought up is the same one you raise from Luke 7, and we both had to agree that yes, Jesus says twice that her sins are forgiven. We then discussed the same question you raise immediately after your reference.
When I come back to the thread, I'll read the entire post and say a bit more about it before continuing to review the other thoughts people wrote up afterwards. Mucho appreciado!
~~~
I literally brought the verse up and addressed it thoroughly in the first post towards the end since I claimed to my stepfather that it actually supports the point I was making. You must've missed it.
~~~
I appreciate the responses of related verses you put up across several posts. As far as I can tell, God is expressing forgiveness and mercy in them towards the sinner, not the sin.
~~~
Haha, I have to be honest when I say I'm don't see a difference between "sins" and "sin" in the context of this topic. I'll keep chewing over it though. With that said, I don't remember if the pastor used the singular or plural version of the word.
~~~
It seems that simple and straight forward to me, but apparently there are others who disagree. I mean, if God decided to just miracle our sins away with forgiveness of them, why did Jesus have to die? That tells me that He forgives people, but He deals with sin (through the penalty of death). Thanks for the warm welcome.
~~~
I'm not really sure if you're addressing the topic being raised, and if so, I'm not sure exactly what you see as the point of disagreement between us.
~~~
OK, I have to come back later to read more of your post beyond where I snipped your response (and the other posts from others I haven't read yet after it), but I discussed the discussion I had with my stepfather the next day with my wonderful wife, and she came up with five more bible passages involving God and forgiveness.
We looked up each one to read exactly what the text says, and for the first four it is clear that God is expressing forgiveness for the person and not the sin as all the verses in my first post show.
However, the fifth passage she brought up is the same one you raise from Luke 7, and we both had to agree that yes, Jesus says twice that her sins are forgiven. We then discussed the same question you raise immediately after your reference.
When I come back to the thread, I'll read the entire post and say a bit more about it before continuing to review the other thoughts people wrote up afterwards. Mucho appreciado!
When Jesus saw their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.” Luke 5:20
But the scribes and Pharisees began thinking to themselves, “Who is this man
who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Luke 5:21
But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on the earth to forgive sins...”
He said to the paralytic, “I tell you, get up, pick up your mat, and go home.” Luke 5:24
“I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who
is forgiven little, loves little.” And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” Luke 7:47-48
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one
another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Psalm 32:1
Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through
Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Acts 13:38
But the scribes and Pharisees began thinking to themselves, “Who is this man
who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Luke 5:21
But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on the earth to forgive sins...”
He said to the paralytic, “I tell you, get up, pick up your mat, and go home.” Luke 5:24
“I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who
is forgiven little, loves little.” And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” Luke 7:47-48
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one
another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Psalm 32:1
Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through
Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Acts 13:38
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In accordance with obedience to the NT command, "...our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed..."
Rom 6:3-7
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hebrews 10:18, 22
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Rom 6:3-7
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hebrews 10:18, 22
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
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In a bit I'll be addressing more responses to the main question posed in this thread (does God forgive sins, or forgive the people who sin?), but I want to put away one side issue first... would some of you out there please stop focusing on the pastor who made the statement?
I am not even saying you accept him as a pastor or not because, honestly, how could you? Nobody here knows enough about him or his ministry to make that determination. That's the point: you don't know enough. I should've only said "I heard the following statement" in the first post so that some of you wouldn't be side-tracked, but it is what it is.
The reason you can't smugly slam him based on the statement alone is because, as seen in this thread by other posters, the claim can be legitimately debated by level-headed Christians before a person decides what they ultimately think is best supported by scripture. There have been verses posted here that seem to go BOTH ways, so it isn't the obvious home run you may think it is one way or the other.
If I said the pastor claimed that Jesus wasn't the Son of God, or that Mary wasn't a virgin, or that all beliefs will get everyone into heaven, then sure, label that person as a heretic and dismiss their opinions without further thought. The bible clearly rejects those claims.
This thread's topic, however is not as easily dismissed even if there is (according to the Holy Spirit) a single, straight forward answer. So please, let's stick to the topic to try an find out what that is instead of derailing it about someone who you have no idea about without more information. Thanks.
I'll get back to responding to the other posts in my next write up.
I am not even saying you accept him as a pastor or not because, honestly, how could you? Nobody here knows enough about him or his ministry to make that determination. That's the point: you don't know enough. I should've only said "I heard the following statement" in the first post so that some of you wouldn't be side-tracked, but it is what it is.
The reason you can't smugly slam him based on the statement alone is because, as seen in this thread by other posters, the claim can be legitimately debated by level-headed Christians before a person decides what they ultimately think is best supported by scripture. There have been verses posted here that seem to go BOTH ways, so it isn't the obvious home run you may think it is one way or the other.
If I said the pastor claimed that Jesus wasn't the Son of God, or that Mary wasn't a virgin, or that all beliefs will get everyone into heaven, then sure, label that person as a heretic and dismiss their opinions without further thought. The bible clearly rejects those claims.
This thread's topic, however is not as easily dismissed even if there is (according to the Holy Spirit) a single, straight forward answer. So please, let's stick to the topic to try an find out what that is instead of derailing it about someone who you have no idea about without more information. Thanks.
I'll get back to responding to the other posts in my next write up.
i have a pool and a sign saying please dont pee in the pool. one person accidently pees in the pool and comes forward to tell me. then another person comes along reads the sign and intentionally pees in the pool. they feel bad about it after and come forward to tell me. finally a third person intentionally pees in the pool and continually does so without care. each commited the same offense yet it is their intent that is penalized. who was trying to follow the rules and who was taking enjoyment from breaking those rules. should all be punished the same? who would get mercy and who would receive justice? the rule was going to be broken eventually. the why it was broken is a major factor in deciding who's kicked out of the pool.
our sins are known. while all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord, our intent while commiting these sins must play a part in our judgement. thou shall not kill. what if i had to kill someone as the only way to prevent them from killing others. while i have broken a commandment, my intent was to prevent others deaths. will i be judged and damned for breaking a commandment regardless of my intent? what if i had the chance to stop someone from killing a classroom full of students but didnt because it would require me to break one of Gods commandments. would God count that as righteous for upholding the law? would i be held accountable for not preventing those other deaths? damned if we do or damned if we dont, our true intentions must be mitigating factor for judgement or forgivness.
its nearly impossible to live in this world without sinning. we may lie to ourselves about our intent while doing so. God knows the truthful intent of all our thoughts and actions. when we sin knowningly and repeatedly, for our own intents and purpose without remorse, we are held accountable and receive the full wrath of judgement. i've heard the road to hell is paved with good intentions. thankfully we go to judgement first. they know the truth. they'll be the judge.
i knew nothing until i asked Jesus for help
duewell
the rainbow connection
.
our sins are known. while all sins are equal in the eyes of the Lord, our intent while commiting these sins must play a part in our judgement. thou shall not kill. what if i had to kill someone as the only way to prevent them from killing others. while i have broken a commandment, my intent was to prevent others deaths. will i be judged and damned for breaking a commandment regardless of my intent? what if i had the chance to stop someone from killing a classroom full of students but didnt because it would require me to break one of Gods commandments. would God count that as righteous for upholding the law? would i be held accountable for not preventing those other deaths? damned if we do or damned if we dont, our true intentions must be mitigating factor for judgement or forgivness.
its nearly impossible to live in this world without sinning. we may lie to ourselves about our intent while doing so. God knows the truthful intent of all our thoughts and actions. when we sin knowningly and repeatedly, for our own intents and purpose without remorse, we are held accountable and receive the full wrath of judgement. i've heard the road to hell is paved with good intentions. thankfully we go to judgement first. they know the truth. they'll be the judge.
i knew nothing until i asked Jesus for help
duewell
the rainbow connection
.
Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8), And Noah and his family was saved. Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose.
That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time. So by coming under the blood of Jesus you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again. It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)
OK, I've now read through the entire thing. My response to your comments about the pastor were addressed in my last entry above, so I won't address it further here. Now on to the meat 'n potatoes of the main topic we're discussing.
I think I understand where you (and some others who expressed disagreement) are coming from and why. The many verses listed in your post and this thread seem to suggest that a claim is being made that God does not forgive, and that's not what this is all about. God does forgive, period.
What I have been attempting though, through scripture, is to zero in on exactly what His forgiveness is specifically being directed towards, and how that is able to actually happen. What is His forgiveness being directed towards? Me and a few others see it as being directed towards the person, not the sin. I will elaborate on this with an illustration later in the next post so this one doesn't grow too long.
How is that able to actually happen? Sure, God can do anything, but He operates within His own declared rules. This is why I've stated that He doesn't just miracle sins away. There is a very specific process involved that I see many posters here completely not focused on seeing. However, that doesn't mean the verses referenced by you and others like @studentoftheword , @Magenta , and @listenyoumustAll aren't 100% true when you all mention the following:
I'm not ignoring that these two verses are true. It's just that I believe your order of operations is all wrong. The bible mentions these two actions of God's part "will" happen, not that they already have happened.
There's a very important reason why the Lord has not yet either "cast our sins into the depths of the sea" or forgotten them altogether. I even pointed out that reason directly in the first post of this thread when I said:
Here is that bible passage quoted in full so you can see for yourselves:
All of that is to say that sins don't just get miracled away! People are forgiven, but sins are dealt with. This is not semantics because God has to work within the framework for dealing with sins that He Himself created. That's what I will address in my next post below. Don't worry though - I will return to the Matthew 7:47-48 passage (and similar ones raised by others) that you and my dear wife pointed out have no direct reference to the forgiveness of the person but instead talks about the forgiveness of sin. That'll happen in the next post also so this doesn't get overly long.
~~~~~
Your first sentence is perhaps the most concise statement made so far that backs up the position I've laid out. There is not one sin that Jesus did not die for. The rest of your post goes in a different direction though that I will elaborate more on in a bit.
Also, you focused on a different pronoun in 1 John 1:9 than I did in the first post. Someone explained it to you in the post after yours, though, so I won't say anything else about it.
Hey @TheDivineWatermark ! I love that link you posted showing the earliest known text in its original language as a source for deciphering what we have in English. I'm gonna bookmark it for referencing research in the future. =)
~~~~~
I read through each verse in your past few write-ups and they contain both types: referencing forgiveness towards the person and referencing the forgiveness of sin. I'll give my thoughts on reconciling the two positions at the end of the next post.
~~~~~
Like I said earlier in this very post, I never meant to imply that the bible does not strongly and repeatedly state that God is in the business of forgiving. This was never my point. Read the opening of this post to see what I think more directly addresses your point about God destroying sin... that's true, but it hasn't happened yet.
~~~~~
@BroTan : I don't see a disagreement between us in your post just above this one, so I suppose you are providing more scriptural support? I'm not sure.
I think I understand where you (and some others who expressed disagreement) are coming from and why. The many verses listed in your post and this thread seem to suggest that a claim is being made that God does not forgive, and that's not what this is all about. God does forgive, period.
What I have been attempting though, through scripture, is to zero in on exactly what His forgiveness is specifically being directed towards, and how that is able to actually happen. What is His forgiveness being directed towards? Me and a few others see it as being directed towards the person, not the sin. I will elaborate on this with an illustration later in the next post so this one doesn't grow too long.
How is that able to actually happen? Sure, God can do anything, but He operates within His own declared rules. This is why I've stated that He doesn't just miracle sins away. There is a very specific process involved that I see many posters here completely not focused on seeing. However, that doesn't mean the verses referenced by you and others like @studentoftheword , @Magenta , and @listenyoumustAll aren't 100% true when you all mention the following:
Hebrews 8:12
For i will be merciful to their iniquities, and i will remember their sins no more.
Micah 7:18-19
Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.
I'm not ignoring that these two verses are true. It's just that I believe your order of operations is all wrong. The bible mentions these two actions of God's part "will" happen, not that they already have happened.
There's a very important reason why the Lord has not yet either "cast our sins into the depths of the sea" or forgotten them altogether. I even pointed out that reason directly in the first post of this thread when I said:
Here is that bible passage quoted in full so you can see for yourselves:
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
See? It shows God won't forget our sins and cast them away until after we are all in the afterlife. When Jesus told us to build up our treasures in heaven instead of on earth (Matthew 6:19-21), the scriptures above show us when His children will get rewarded... along with the suffering of loss for the sins we committed (though we will remain saved). How can we suffer that loss in the afterlife if God already cast away our sins and forgotten about it? This is why He only banishes them forever just before we enter heaven.All of that is to say that sins don't just get miracled away! People are forgiven, but sins are dealt with. This is not semantics because God has to work within the framework for dealing with sins that He Himself created. That's what I will address in my next post below. Don't worry though - I will return to the Matthew 7:47-48 passage (and similar ones raised by others) that you and my dear wife pointed out have no direct reference to the forgiveness of the person but instead talks about the forgiveness of sin. That'll happen in the next post also so this doesn't get overly long.
~~~~~
Your first sentence is perhaps the most concise statement made so far that backs up the position I've laid out. There is not one sin that Jesus did not die for. The rest of your post goes in a different direction though that I will elaborate more on in a bit.
Also, you focused on a different pronoun in 1 John 1:9 than I did in the first post. Someone explained it to you in the post after yours, though, so I won't say anything else about it.
Hey @TheDivineWatermark ! I love that link you posted showing the earliest known text in its original language as a source for deciphering what we have in English. I'm gonna bookmark it for referencing research in the future. =)
~~~~~
I read through each verse in your past few write-ups and they contain both types: referencing forgiveness towards the person and referencing the forgiveness of sin. I'll give my thoughts on reconciling the two positions at the end of the next post.
~~~~~
Like I said earlier in this very post, I never meant to imply that the bible does not strongly and repeatedly state that God is in the business of forgiving. This was never my point. Read the opening of this post to see what I think more directly addresses your point about God destroying sin... that's true, but it hasn't happened yet.
~~~~~
@BroTan : I don't see a disagreement between us in your post just above this one, so I suppose you are providing more scriptural support? I'm not sure.
Here is a clear messages on the topic that probably won't be as long as that one was.
I encourage you to listen and consider it.
Have a good evening.
Good News on Forgiveness
I encourage you to listen and consider it.
Have a good evening.
Good News on Forgiveness
In this response, connected to the one above and the thread as a whole, I will try to more clearly illustrate and explain how the bible supports God's forgiveness of people instead of sin. I will also at the end try to reconcile the fact that scriptures many of us posted here appear to support both positions.
~~~~~
First, an illustration:
~~~~~
Of course, we all know that the actions of the judge in this illustration were foul. In fact, they were the opposite of real justice, right? Specifically, ask yourself why that is. The answer to that is what I've been trying to explain from the beginning.
God's law established in Genesis 2 says that if you sin, you shall surely die. That's the initial verse I started with in the first post of this thread. Please don't ignore it, because my point is that the scriptures show that God cannot ignore His own law either.
Every single sin, no matter how small or large, cannot be just forgiven away with a nice, warm statement. Not even from Jesus Himself. The law does not allow that, just like the law doesn't allow Anderson to just wipe the crimes away. Due process must be followed. What is the process for dealing with sin according to the bible? Death!
So the logical conclusion that every Christian reading this should agree is this: the Lord does not just make sins go away (which happens ONLY in the afterlife.... see my post above for scriptural proof) without dealing with it first. I mean, if Jesus could just miracle sin away with words as some here seem to think, why did He have to die on the cross? Please, answer that question!
The fact is, He had to die before we could stand before our Creator covered in HIS righteousness (not our own), because forgiveness cannot not even be offered until our debt is paid for in full.
That brings us back to Judge Anderson. She is corrupt to the core, and has no business comparing herself to our Lord and Savior. OK, she says we serve a God of forgiveness, which is correct. But she is wrong (like some posting in this thread) that God forgives the sin like she did with that terrible ruling to let the murderer go free unpunished.
If she truly wanted to offer forgiveness the right way, all she had to do was announce that the murderer could go free because she was volunteering to die in his place. Do you see know what all of this is about? God is a perfect judge because every single sin will be dealt with by the wrath of God being poured out as I showed with bible references in the first post. Every. Single. Sin.
The key is that Jesus accepted to have that wrath poured out on Him after being made into sin (again, as I supported with scripture in the first post). This shows that God is also perfect in mercy since He died for the sins of the entire world, not just those who accept His offer of forgiveness. That's just one of many reasons why the second half of John 1:14 (one of my all time favorite verses) is so true:
Not fifty/fifty grace and truth, but Jesus was completely filled with it. Many posters here emphasize the full grace of God, but that's an incomplete observation even though it's true. Please understand that He is also full of truth, which means the law must be fulfilled completely. Jesus says so Himself right here:
All sin must be dealt with, which Jesus initiated on the cross by dying for each and every one of our sins. It's what we mean when we casually say "He paid the price for me". That's literally true, and He did it without miracling our sins away with a simple statement. The final act ahead when it comes to sin is when God casts them away and forgets about them in the afterlife as I explained in my last post.
<to be continued on the next page> ---->
~~~~~
First, an illustration:
Judge Anderson has a case before her where a defendant is accused of murdering five senior citizens for what amounted to $3,250 over the course of three months. The defendant was not on drugs/alcohol, nor does he claim he was insane. In fact, he confesses to the crimes, says he is sorry and promises to be better before throwing himself on the mercy of the court.
Guilt has been determined - no one disagrees with that. So after a period of deliberation, Judge Anderson comes back to lay out the sentence on the defendant: the murderer's pleas have softened the judge's heart she says, and his promises to be good sound sincere enough so she sets him free.
Needless to say, the public is outraged. "How is that justice?" is the question she is pressured to answer later on. Her response? "I may be an atheist, but Christians out there say that a God of love is a God of forgiveness. So they have no right to accuse me of doing wrong since all I did was show a forgiving heart to this poor man like God Himself."
~~~~~
Of course, we all know that the actions of the judge in this illustration were foul. In fact, they were the opposite of real justice, right? Specifically, ask yourself why that is. The answer to that is what I've been trying to explain from the beginning.
God's law established in Genesis 2 says that if you sin, you shall surely die. That's the initial verse I started with in the first post of this thread. Please don't ignore it, because my point is that the scriptures show that God cannot ignore His own law either.
Every single sin, no matter how small or large, cannot be just forgiven away with a nice, warm statement. Not even from Jesus Himself. The law does not allow that, just like the law doesn't allow Anderson to just wipe the crimes away. Due process must be followed. What is the process for dealing with sin according to the bible? Death!
So the logical conclusion that every Christian reading this should agree is this: the Lord does not just make sins go away (which happens ONLY in the afterlife.... see my post above for scriptural proof) without dealing with it first. I mean, if Jesus could just miracle sin away with words as some here seem to think, why did He have to die on the cross? Please, answer that question!
The fact is, He had to die before we could stand before our Creator covered in HIS righteousness (not our own), because forgiveness cannot not even be offered until our debt is paid for in full.
That brings us back to Judge Anderson. She is corrupt to the core, and has no business comparing herself to our Lord and Savior. OK, she says we serve a God of forgiveness, which is correct. But she is wrong (like some posting in this thread) that God forgives the sin like she did with that terrible ruling to let the murderer go free unpunished.
If she truly wanted to offer forgiveness the right way, all she had to do was announce that the murderer could go free because she was volunteering to die in his place. Do you see know what all of this is about? God is a perfect judge because every single sin will be dealt with by the wrath of God being poured out as I showed with bible references in the first post. Every. Single. Sin.
The key is that Jesus accepted to have that wrath poured out on Him after being made into sin (again, as I supported with scripture in the first post). This shows that God is also perfect in mercy since He died for the sins of the entire world, not just those who accept His offer of forgiveness. That's just one of many reasons why the second half of John 1:14 (one of my all time favorite verses) is so true:
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Not fifty/fifty grace and truth, but Jesus was completely filled with it. Many posters here emphasize the full grace of God, but that's an incomplete observation even though it's true. Please understand that He is also full of truth, which means the law must be fulfilled completely. Jesus says so Himself right here:
Luke 16:17
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
All sin must be dealt with, which Jesus initiated on the cross by dying for each and every one of our sins. It's what we mean when we casually say "He paid the price for me". That's literally true, and He did it without miracling our sins away with a simple statement. The final act ahead when it comes to sin is when God casts them away and forgets about them in the afterlife as I explained in my last post.
<to be continued on the next page> ---->