Saved by faith alone?

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Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,262
1,647
113
#81
Agreed. So, if one's faith is not dead, then it will be alive in the obdeience of God's conditions of holiness and righteousness to inherit eternal life.
Nope your trying to mix grace and works

if ones faith is real. then they are saved, and have been Given Gods spirit

and out of this salvation and gift. They will do works. they will be obedient. But like Abraham, we should not expect them to be perfect. so they are still according to Gods standard sinners who fall short.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,262
1,647
113
#83
Funny that Peter says baptism saves us. Who's right, you or Peter?

1Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Peter said like the waters of the flood, in which 8 were saved (remember the water was Gods wrath poured out on man)

that baptism in the same manner symbolises that which saves us from Gods wrath

But he made it clear. it does not remove the filth of the flesh

it does not remove the sin which condemns us!!
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
1,055
447
83
#84
No, one becomes holy and righteous because of God, His grace working in us. Not dead faith alone. This is not accomplished by self determination alone, but the love of God working in us.

Ephesians 5
[1] Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
[3] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
[4] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
[5] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Just wanted to say that I appreciate your participle in this discussion.
Also, wanted to point out that I believe that Paul is addressing folks that he already considers Saved in this portion of Scripture.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,126
13,138
113
58
#85
even demons believe yet tremble

did demons have faith?

If you CLAIM you have faith, but have zero zip nada works. can that CLAIMED (DEAD) Faith save you?
Amen! In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their faith is in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. There is a big difference between mere "mental assent" belief (as the demons have) and saving belief/faith in Christ, which the demons do not have.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) they have faith, but they have no works (to evidence their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
 
K

KlND

Guest
#86
Does the phrase, "saved by faith" equivalent to the term, "saved by faith alone"?
IMO... Yes, I believe.

"For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you." Matthew 17:20-21
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
1,055
447
83
#87
Agreed but who is suggesting that we work our way to heaven?
It seems as if this works salvation monster is all in your head.

Labeling the acts of obedience of others toward salvation as acts of merit is a sign of arrogance.

What you should be concerned about is having your wedding gown on and stop telling others the gown is a work therefore not needed.

Matthew 22:12 ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ But the man was speechless.

Putting on the wedding gown was not a work to earn your right into the wedding feast but your willingness to come on the terms of the King.
Are you saying that a woman must "dress appropriately" in order to get married? I would think that no special adornment is required for anyone to get married. That seems ridiculous to me.
Likewise, I think that you misunderstand Matt. 22:12 and the customs of that time... what "wedding clothes" really means.

I don't believe, like you and others seem to, that we must clean-up our act before we come to God for Life. I don't think that God requires us to be obedient to Him prior to Him becoming our Lord. (Indeed, I don't think that the unregenerate can be obedient before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.)
 

NightTwister

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2023
1,422
477
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64
Colorado, USA
#89
Agreed but who is suggesting that we work our way to heaven?
It seems as if this works salvation monster is all in your head.

Labeling the acts of obedience of others toward salvation as acts of merit is a sign of arrogance.

What you should be concerned about is having your wedding gown on and stop telling others the gown is a work therefore not needed.

Matthew 22:12 ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ But the man was speechless.

Putting on the wedding gown was not a work to earn your right into the wedding feast but your willingness to come on the terms of the King.
Requiring acts of obedience (works) as part of your salvation is a sign of arrogance, as though God relies on you.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,756
3,562
113
#90
No, that's not what the Scriptures teach.

Galatians 5
[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Are you advocating a works based salvation? Paul is not talking about believers, but lost people who do these things.

1 Corinthians 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

If I'm in Christ, I have taken on his identity. Was Christ a fornicator? Neither am I. Was Christ an idolater? Neither am I. Even though I may sin in the flesh, that is no longer my identity. If I steal something, I am not a thief because Christ was not a thief. Does that give us a right to sin? God forbid! These Corinthians believers were caught up in all kinds of sins, but Paul reminds them who they are in Christ. In Christ, we are no longer unrighteous as the passage indicates. In Christ, we have been given His righteousness!
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
570
113
#91
Does the phrase, "saved by faith" equivalent to the term, "saved by faith alone"?
Seeing how Abraham is called "the father of all them that believe" (Romans 4:11), we can benefit, I believe, by looking at his life in order to understand the proper correlation between faith and works.

On the one hand, Paul plainly taught that Abraham was justified or made righteous by faith without works.

Romans 4:1-3

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Let's look at the portion of scripture that Paul referenced in relation to Abraham's, or Abram's prior to his name change, justification by faith.

Genesis 15:1-6

"After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Abram or Abraham believed what God told him in relation to his seed, and this specific belief was counted to him for righteousness, or by this belief Abram or Abraham was justified by faith before the LORD.

We know from scripture that Abram's or Abraham's seed is Christ.

Galatians 3:16

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

In other words, Christ is the seed in whom Abram or Abraham placed his faith, and this was accounted unto him for righteousness apart from any works.

However, on the other hand, James plainly taught that Abraham was justified by works.

James 2:14-24

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

While referencing the same exact portion of scripture that Paul referenced to prove that Abram or Abraham was justified by faith apart from works, James said that this scripture was not fulfilled until the time came that Abram or Abraham's faith wrought with his works.

What does that mean?

Simply put, it means this. God told Abraham that his seed, which is Christ, would come through his son Isaac.

Genesis 21:12

"And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

Shortly thereafter, God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, through whom Christ would come, on the altar. Abraham had such faith or belief in God's promise that he attempted to sacrifice Isaac while believing that God would need to raise him from the dead in order to fulfill his promise.

Hebrews 11:17-19

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."

When Abraham's faith wrought with his works, or when Abraham sought to sacrifice Isaac in correlation with his belief in God's promise concerning his seed or Christ, then the scripture was fulfilled which says that Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. In other words, Abraham's actions or works aligned themselves with that which he professed to believe in, and our actions or works need to align themselves with what we profess to believe in as well.

It isn't a work, other than the work of Christ on the cross which we need to believe in, that saves us, but if we have been truly saved by faith in Christ, then our works will correlate with that which we profess to believe in.

I hope that wasn't confusing.
 

Bambou

Junior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1
0
1
#92
I think it's dangerous. God definitely blesses and curses our obedience to the Word. I've experienced it recently, where I disobeyed the Word and tried to justify it and there was a huge consequence.
 

DJT_47

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2022
1,026
182
63
#93
Peter said like the waters of the flood, in which 8 were saved (remember the water was Gods wrath poured out on man)

that baptism in the same manner symbolises that which saves us from Gods wrath

But he made it clear. it does not remove the filth of the flesh

it does not remove the sin which condemns us!!
Does he say it saves us or not? If yes, that's all you need yo know.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
588
83
28
#94
What they are actually saying is that God does a work in you that is the cause for your newfound desires.
You are quick to quote Acts 2:38. But what led to that point began to take shape in the preceding verses.
"What they are actually saying"??

Can't the verses just mean what they are saying?

Why is it that you have to explain what the verses are "actually saying"?
Im guessing he was refering to this

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10
Requiring acts of obedience (works) as part of your salvation is a sign of arrogance, as though God relies on you.
God requiring acts of obedience is arrogance on my part???

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

It is Jesus requiring baptism not me.
It is you who is denying what is clearly written.

Acts of obedience are not works of salvation, there are no works of salvation!

It is simply you and others falsely labeling the motives of the submissive. Show so grace, they are but doing what is clearly presented in the Bible.
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
1,617
562
113
#95
my view

God the Father in His Love --- Mercy and Grace toward His sinful Creation made Salvation available to all by Sending His Son to Shed His Blood --to die on the Cross -and be Resurrected after the Cross --

Grace now is a person not a Doctrine ---Jesus is full of Grace and Truth ------Jesus is a person not a Doctrine

John 1:14 ans 17 NIV
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

I say ---
You need the right Faith to be saved -----Folks ---there is a non producing faith which God gives us when we are born it is a Faith that relies on the 5 senses ----

God's Faith that comes from hearing His word is a producing faith -----this faith is a substance which receives and manifests what God promises in His word -----Faith always requires a positive response -----God's Faith requires action -----you will speak out what you have Faith (confidence) in ------

God created this world by speaking ----God said let there be light and light appeared -----that is why it is important follow what the scripture says to be saved -------

Romans 10:9-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
So Salvation comes by way of Grace who is Jesus which comes through Faith in what He did to bring about Salvation ----

I say ----
BY Confession with your mouth ---your speaking out your Faith and manifesting your Salvation ------Faith Receives what Grace makes available -----

-Faith then is the main component as without the right Faith you can even please God -----

Grace comes through Faith ---so Grace who is Jesus has made Salvation available to all people by the shedding of His Blood --His death on the Cross and His Resurrection ---but without the right Faith your access to Saving Grace is nil --so your saved by and through the right Faith alone ----- Faith is your title deed to your receiving the free Graced Gift of Salvation ----



Many don't know because it is not preached -----but there are 3 types of Faith -----James 2 explains the 3 types ---2 are non producing ------


Also there is different types of Grace -----which are not preached about -----

Common Grace is given to us all at birth -----God makes it rain on the Just and the unjust ------but this grace will not save you ----

Common Grace
God loves all people. Common Grace is God’s kindness to everyone whether or not they acknowledge Him. While it is true that believers will experience both common grace and saving grace, those who are apart from Christ will only experience common grace in this life.

Prevenient Grace
This old fashion word means to precede. To precede what? When discussing Grace, prevenient grace is the work that prepares our hearts and minds to hear and receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God works in and around our lives before we even have awareness of Him moving on our behalf.

Justifying Grace
Romans 3:23 tells us that “All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory”. No matter how hard we try or how much effort we exert, we cannot be good enough. Because of God’s great love for us, He made a way through Christ for us to be pardoned or justified.

In this falling world, we are born into the sin of Adam and because of that, the image of God that we were created to be is distorted by sin.

Sanctifying Grace
Prevenient and justifying grace enables you to become a Christian, but it is sanctifying grace that enables you to be a Christian.

To sanctify means to make holy. Once God’s prevenient grace has convicted us of our sin and our need for Christ and after we receive His forgiveness by faith through God’s justifying grace, His Spirit begins the process of our inner transformation. It is God’s sanctifying graces that transform us into the likeness of Christ.

Glorifying Grace
Finally, it is glorifying grace that enables you to be fully conformed to the image of Christ in the New Creation.

Romans 8:30-32 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
4,316
1,696
113
#96
If you CLAIM you have faith, but have zero zip nada works. can that CLAIMED (DEAD) Faith save you?
Saved it not always a reference to "spiritual" salvation.

Sadly people make a mess of James thinking he is back loading works onto salvation he is not.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
588
83
28
#97
Seeing how Abraham is called "the father of all them that believe" (Romans 4:11), we can benefit, I believe, by looking at his life in order to understand the proper correlation between faith and works.

On the one hand, Paul plainly taught that Abraham was justified or made righteous by faith without works.

Romans 4:1-3

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Let's look at the portion of scripture that Paul referenced in relation to Abraham's, or Abram's prior to his name change, justification by faith.

Genesis 15:1-6

"After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Abram or Abraham believed what God told him in relation to his seed, and this specific belief was counted to him for righteousness, or by this belief Abram or Abraham was justified by faith before the LORD.

We know from scripture that Abram's or Abraham's seed is Christ.

Galatians 3:16

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

In other words, Christ is the seed in whom Abram or Abraham placed his faith, and this was accounted unto him for righteousness apart from any works.

However, on the other hand, James plainly taught that Abraham was justified by works.

James 2:14-24

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

While referencing the same exact portion of scripture that Paul referenced to prove that Abram or Abraham was justified by faith apart from works, James said that this scripture was not fulfilled until the time came that Abram or Abraham's faith wrought with his works.

What does that mean?

Simply put, it means this. God told Abraham that his seed, which is Christ, would come through his son Isaac.

Genesis 21:12

"And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

Shortly thereafter, God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, through whom Christ would come, on the altar. Abraham had such faith or belief in God's promise that he attempted to sacrifice Isaac while believing that God would need to raise him from the dead in order to fulfill his promise.

Hebrews 11:17-19

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."

When Abraham's faith wrought with his works, or when Abraham sought to sacrifice Isaac in correlation with his belief in God's promise concerning his seed or Christ, then the scripture was fulfilled which says that Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. In other words, Abraham's actions or works aligned themselves with that which he professed to believe in, and our actions or works need to align themselves with what we profess to believe in as well.

It isn't a work, other than the work of Christ on the cross which we need to believe in, that saves us, but if we have been truly saved by faith in Christ, then our works will correlate with that which we profess to believe in.

I hope that wasn't confusing.
You used 975 words but I still don't know if you think they are equivalent?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
15,713
5,579
113
62
#98
"What they are actually saying"??

Can't the verses just mean what they are saying?

Why is it that you have to explain what the verses are "actually saying"?


God requiring acts of obedience is arrogance on my part???

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

It is Jesus requiring baptism not me.
It is you who is denying what is clearly written.

Acts of obedience are not works of salvation, there are no works of salvation!

It is simply you and others falsely labeling the motives of the submissive. Show so grace, they are but doing what is clearly presented in the Bible.
I'm saying there are things that attend salvation and are a resultant part of it but do not produce it. You examine well the outcomes of salvation, but ignore its underlying cause. You see repent and baptize, but you neglect hearing and pricking. Apart from the hearing and pricking there is no repentance and baptizing.

Salvation occurs when God draws nigh to man...No man comes unless the Father draws him.
 

seekingthemindofChrist

Casting down imaginations
Jul 10, 2023
1,178
570
113
#99
You used 975 words but I still don't know if you think they are equivalent?
You counted my words? lol. Sorry. Our faith should never stand alone, so I would have to say that they are not equivalent. Faith without works is dead. How dead? As dead as the body without the spirit according to scripture.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
588
83
28
I'm saying there are things that attend salvation and are a resultant part of it but do not produce it. You examine well the outcomes of salvation, but ignore its underlying cause. You see repent and baptize, but you neglect hearing and pricking. Apart from the hearing and pricking there is no repentance and baptizing.

Salvation occurs when God draws nigh to man...No man comes unless the Father draws him.
I understand, you believe in calvinism.

Let me guess and you just happen to be one of the few chosen.

Lucky you.