Paul saw the ten commandments as part of the "ministry of death."

Romans 10:4

The curse is the result/punishment of breaking the Law. People steal, lie or murder and it creates chaos in the earth, bad for everyone, and the consequence and penalty is the curse.

Deuteronomy 21:22-23, “And when a man has committed a sin worthy of death, then he shall be put to death and you shall hang him on a tree. Let his body not remain overnight on the tree, for you shall certainly bury him the same day – for he who is hanged is accursed of Yah – so that you do not defile the land which יהוה your Strength is giving you as an inheritance.”

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them."

Do not murer, do not steal, honor you father and mother, love you neighbor, etc. is not a curse

Psalm 19:7-11, “The Torah (Instructions/Law) of יהוה is perfect, bringing back the being; The witness of יהוה is trustworthy, making wise the simple; The orders of יהוה are straight, rejoicing the heart; The command of יהוה is clear, enlightening the eyes; The fear of יהוה is clean, standing forever; The right-rulings of יהוה are true, They are righteous altogether, More desirable than gold, Than much fine gold; And sweeter than honey and the honeycomb. Also, Your servant is warned by them, In guarding them there is great reward.”

Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;

Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."

1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."

If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”

James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of יהוה, that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”

1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”

1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

Romans 6:22, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end (telos) everlasting life.”

Romans 6:22, “But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of Yah, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the goal (telos); everlasting life.”

Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."

The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law…

Galatians 3:23-25

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of יהוה and possessing the witness of יהושע Messiah."

Revelation 12:17, “Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Amen!!

It's sad that the veil still remains even to this day... many tend look to the Old with a singular focus and miss the importance of all that Christ has accomplished. They cling to Torah observance and while they claim to follow Jesus, they don't really. People did the same in Paul's day, as talked about in Scripture.

We learn from the Old, but it's in the New that receive Eternal Life. Total surrender to Jesus' commands... a "putting off" of the Old... is all that's needed, as this Scripture says... "But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."

But some won't...

Matthew 27:50-51, “And יהושע cried out again with a loud voice, and gave up His spirit. And see, the veil of the Dwelling Place was torn in two from top to bottom, and the earth was shaken, and the rocks were split.”

Hebrews 9:1-3, “Now the first covenant indeed had regulations of worship and the earthly set-apart place. For a Tent was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, and the table, and the showbread, which is called the Set-apart Place. And after the second veil, the part of the Tent which is called Most Set-apart.”

Hebrews 9:24-15, “For Messiah has not entered into a Set-apart Place made by hand – figures of the true – but into the heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Elohim on our behalf, not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the Set-apart Place year by year with blood not his own.”

Hebrews 9:11-12, “But Messiah, having become a High Priest of the coming good matters, through the greater and more perfect Tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, entered into the Most Set-apart Place once for all, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood, having obtained everlasting redemption.”

Hebrews 10:19-22, “So, brothers, having boldness to enter into the Set-apart Place by the blood of יהושע, by a new and living way which He instituted for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh. by a new and living way which He instituted for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the House of YHWH. let us draw near with a true heart in completeness of belief, having our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies washed with clean water.”

right don’t make idols of zgod and worship them because Jesus is the image of God to avoid idols you believe I. The true God manifest in Christ Jesus the lord

“ don’t have idols “

instead go to the lord and believe him

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, ( Moses isn’t the sin of God jesusnis the gospel is about Jesus coming to earth to speak the truth of God ) and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the next verse

“Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

worship the true God manifest in his son dont worship idols like israel did when God gave them over to the worship of angels at Sinai

“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

….saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices By the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, And the star of your god Remphan, Figures which ye made to worship them: ( idols ) And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:38, 40-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems like you are right here honestly

“Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:12-15‬ ‭KJV‬

you can read what Paul’s saying but your not able to accept it os my own irrelevant opinion of the issue the whole point of chaoter 15 is that there was a sect of Pharisees trying to add the old covenant to the new and thier decision I’d also clear there is no command for the church to be circumcised according to Moses or keep his law but some actually prefer to be blind so they embrace Moses veil and can’t see past it like Paul’s explaining

this seems to be you

we use great plainness of speech: and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament;”


You can’t see the end of the law because your looking at the law and not Jesus

you want to believe what Paul’s saying about Moses words it’s true

“even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”

You want to come here and put your faith in him

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But some think we should look at a ministration of sin and death instead …..I’m Christian though Christ is my lord I don’t need Moses to go meet Jesus and then return from meeting Jesus and tell
Me what he said and then send Moses back to communicate with him for me …..

Jesus is with me …..it would be silly now to go to a mediator to try to get to know the lord he came and made himself known to all it you are free to embrace Moses law just know it’s a blindfold like Paul explains well in the Bible

ill let you have the last word don’t see much fruit to be had but God bless and keep you though

Well said

It is nice to agree on something, even as simple as no idols.Hoever I see you did not touch on Paul saying it does not matter.

1 Corinthians 8:7-8, “However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.”

Acts 15:19-21,29 “19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles (new converts) who are turning to YHWH, 20, but that we write to them to abstain from the defilements of idols, and from whoring, and from what is strangled, and from blood. 21, For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath. 29, that you abstain from what is offered to idols, and blood, and what is strangled, and whoring. If you keep yourselves from these, you shall do well. Be strong!”

Matthew 27:50-51, “And יהושע cried out again with a loud voice, and gave up His spirit. And see, the veil of the Dwelling Place was torn in two from top to bottom, and the earth was shaken, and the rocks were split.”

Moses veil was a foreshadowing of the veil in the set apart place, meaning the way to enter. For When Moses received the Law there was not Temple or Tabernacle, yet Moses was the mediator, then when the Tabernacle and Temple was constructed the Lewites because the mediator, now the Yahshua has become High Priest He is the Mediator, the Book of Hebrews goes into detail on this matter.

Hebrews 9:1-3, “Now the first covenant indeed had regulations of worship and the earthly set-apart place. For a Tent was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, and the table, and the showbread, which is called the Set-apart Place. And after the second veil, the part of the Tent which is called Most Set-apart.”

Hebrews 9:24-15, “For Messiah has not entered into a Set-apart Place made by hand – figures of the true – but into the heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Elohim on our behalf, not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the Set-apart Place year by year with blood not his own.”

Hebrews 9:11-12, “But Messiah, having become a High Priest of the coming good matters, through the greater and more perfect Tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, entered into the Most Set-apart Place once for all, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood, having obtained everlasting redemption.”

Hebrews 10:19-22, “So, brothers, having boldness to enter into the Set-apart Place by the blood of יהושע, by a new and living way which He instituted for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh. by a new and living way which He instituted for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the House of YHWH. let us draw near with a true heart in completeness of belief, having our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies washed with clean water.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

Righteous Instructions are not thrown out because you misunderstand Paul.

2 Peter 3:15-17, “15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. “

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Lets look at places this word is used in the Konie Greek originals to get an idea of it meaning and context;

Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."

1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

1 Peter 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith – the salvation of your souls."

If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away or at an end in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away or at an end in 1 Peter 1:9. Unless of course “telos” means the goal.

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #G5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

James 5:11, “Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.”

James 5:11, “See, we call those blessed who endure. You have heard of the endurance of Iyoḇ and saw the purpose (telos) of יהוה, that He is very sympathetic and compassionate.”

1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”

1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

Romans 6:22, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end (telos) everlasting life.”

Romans 6:22, “But now, having been set free from sin, and having become servants of Yah, you have your fruit resulting in set-apartness, and the goal (telos); everlasting life.”

Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."

The word is used in the sense of the end result, the goal, the outcome, not in the sense of the obliteration of the Law…

You speak nonsense I have already stated otherwise on, literally quoting verses that show Yahshua as mediator and High Priest.

John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,..."

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of יהוה and possessing the witness of יהושע Messiah."

John 10:16, “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd (G4166 poimén).”

Matthew 23:8-9, “But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher (#G1320 didaskalos), and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father G3962 patér), who is in heaven.”

1 Corinthians 4:15-16, “You may have 10,000 mentors who work for the Messiah, but not many fathers (G3962 patér). For in the Messiah Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. So I urge you to imitate me.”

2 John 1:9, “Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.”

You apply ideas to me I never stated. Also you still never replied to any of these posts:

https://christianchat.com/threads/p...-of-the-ministry-of-death.212247/post-5135697

https://christianchat.com/threads/p...-of-the-ministry-of-death.212247/post-5135698

https://christianchat.com/threads/p...-of-the-ministry-of-death.212247/post-5135704

It not a real discussion if you just ignore what I say then come back and post more at me, in those posts

Mat 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Master! Master! Will enter into the Kingdom of YHWH, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Master! Master! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

“iniquity” is word # G0458 - anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459, Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law, 1a) because ignorant of it, 1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

Mark 7:13-15

Great read brother!!

I don't want to assume or add to what you've written, but would like to say what's interesting to me in the "Jerusalem Council" is that "they", James, et al., said what they said... but the interesting bit is what they didn't say! Why didn't they say, observe Torah? Observe the 10 Commandments? It would have saved ink, lol. And then, in Corinthians, Paul virtually dismisses the whole of the "Jerusalem Council's" message...? Go figure... but he does clearly explain. (Though many misunderstand).

The thing is, many see Jesus and others say to obey His commands, and automatically think of the 10 Commandments. But Jesus never said to observe either the 10 Commandments or Torah. Why not? But He gave plenty of "commands" (centered around loving God and others - some count up to 30?). We are told that God has written His Laws on our hearts and mind... also that the Holy Spirit indwells us... ergo, we have the Law-Giver inside us, leading us into all Truth. And Jesus expounded on the Law in amazing depth and new dimension that the Old Covenant didn't clarify... showing us that, under the New Covenant, we have a greater revelation... Praise God. What is written on our hearts/mind is much more glorious then the (mere) 10 Commandments... it's deeper, and closer aligned with the very nature of God Himself.

So, when people say, "How can you say that the 10 Commandmentments are done away with? Do you still murder, covet, commit adultery?" I find it rather sophomoric!! No, God is never changing... but the 10 C's are obsolete. We have a better 10, and more detailed and beautiful... as Jesus expanded them. So, while the 10 Commandments have been done away with, God remains the same... and what is written on my heart/mind includes the 10 Commandments but enhanced... and then again much more.

Does God's Law continue... well, yes and no. God's nature has not changed one millimeter. What He gives us though, through Jesus Christ, is an "improved version", but still different. We obey, each in their own way, the same things/ideas/morals, but nothing is written in stone. If they were in stone (written form) others might point to them and demand us to follow. But now we follow our calling by the Spirit. Pointing to stone is a carnal thing; being led by the Spirit is something wholey "other". And Paul's words about a "law of liberty" become clearer... IMHO.

Anyway, I'm rambling now, lol. I hope that by attaching this post to your thoughts doesn't offend.

Jesus did say this:

Mat 22:36-40, “Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might (Deuteronomy 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,..."

Galatians 2:20-21

Many "yodh"'s have passed away... the Temple, and all corresponding, ritual laws, have been destroyed... those should definitely be counted as "yodhs". (Just as an aside, this is an English-speaking site... though I'm not a Mod and hold no authority... the site does request that we speak in English... why do you insist on mixing languages in your posts?) Are you insinuating that Jesus was confused?

Paul opposed Judaizers... and putting oneself back under the law.

Know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus,
that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Oh that’s a pretty one Jesus looks cool on there

can I ask sister what do you read in this section of scripture

“As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come;

but the body is of Christ.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:6-19‬ ‭

when you read that , what are some of your thoughts ? I love your panels but your thoughts are always biblical and I was wondering about your take there ? I see certain things which is obvious but was wondering about a different pair of eyes and ears that I’ve come to trust a bit ….