The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

brightfame52 · Oct 11, 2023

The Saving Benefits of Christ's Death !

Another scripture that speaks of the saving benefits of the Death of Christ is Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Now this applies to all for whom He was delivered up for. That word delivered speaks of His death as it does also here Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Where here it clearly states He was delivered up for our offences, or simply he died for our sins 1 Cor 15:3,

Yet Rom 8:32 goes on to say in regards to them He was delivered up for " how shall he[The Father] not with him also freely give us all things?"

Now what are these all things freely given along with Christ to them He was delivered up for ? One of those things is free Justification from all sin !

Look back at Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Those whom sins He was delivered because of, the same was He raised because of their Justification from all the offences He was delivered up for !

Now that is also indicated in Rom 8:32 with the words "freely give" those are the words charizomai and means:

I.to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to, gratify

A.to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent

B.to grant forgiveness, to pardon

C.to give graciously, give freely, bestow

i.to forgive

ii.graciously to restore one to another

iii.to preserve for one a person in peril

That speak to Justification, forgiveness of sins is Justification from them !

One of the Saving Benefits that come with the Giving of Christ to those He was delivered up for, is Justification from sin and or forgiveness of sins ! 39

brightfame52 · Oct 11, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

you need to read the verse again, brightfame52 ...

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

inasmuch as the Lord Jesus Christ died to take away the sins of all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ... and we know that some will find themselves cast into the lake of fire ... your claim is error.

more sleight of men and cunning craftiness (Eph 4:14) here, brightfame52, as you properly cite "them which are IN Christ Jesus" as shown in Rom 8:1 ... then re-direct to 2 Tim 1:9 rather than read from Rom 8:1 (the direct context of Rom 8:33-34) ... and then change "IN Christ Jesus" to "those for whom Christ died" when you read Rom 8:33-34.

and again, I direct you to John 5:24:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 1:7 refers to those who are faithful in Christ Jesus (Eph 1:1) ... you pull same ole switcheroo here as you did with Rom 8.

...

Romans 3:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

... read the verse again, brightfame52:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

you, brightfame52, preach "another gospel" ...
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More opposition to the truth explained

reneweddaybyday · Oct 13, 2023

brightfame52 said:

... pretzel logic ...

Just read the verse in the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it in order to unravel the illogic of your statement:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God]was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.

brightfame52 · Oct 13, 2023

The Saving Benefits of Christ's Death ! 2

First of all to have given us Christ is to have given us Salvation, this is stated here by the aged Saint Lk 2:30-32

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Because He is Salvation, He Lightens the Gentiles !

And so in giving us Christ, we with Him receive some fringe benefits, those things which accompany Salvation, who is Christ Heb 6:9

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany/joined with salvation or Christ, though we thus speak.

Benefits of the Spiritual kind are joined with the giving of Christ, things appropriate for full Salvation !

Lets look at 2 Pet 1-4

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Now notice Vs 3 He hath given us [along with the giving us of Christ Rom 8:32]

All things that pertain to Life and Godliness, through the Knowledge of Him that hath called us to Glory and virtue ! 39

brightfame52 · Oct 13, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

... pretzel logic ...

Just read the verse in the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed it in order to unravel the illogic of your statement:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God]was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.

More opposition to the Truth.

reneweddaybyday · Oct 14, 2023

brightfame52 said:

... nope ... let's find out more about the context of Luke 2:30-32.

Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to the temple according to the law of the Lord:

Luke 2:

22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord; )

24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

... then we read about Simeon ... let's get a little background about who he was:

Luke 2:

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law

Now let's read what Simeon said:

Luke 2:28-32

28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

vs 28 – Simeon saw Jesus, recognized Him as Messiah, and gave praise and worship to God

vs 29-32 – Simeon could now depart in peace because he had seen Messiah ... Simeon had been waiting for the consolation of Israel (vs 25) ... the Holy Spirit had revealed to Simeon that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ (vs 26).

Simeon declared God's promise to Abraham all the way back in Genesis:

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Simeon also declared what was written in Scripture concerning Messiah being the light of the gentiles:

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

brightfame52 said:

quit adding to Scripture ... read the verse just as it is written:

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

why is the Author speaking of better things of you? what is written in the previous verses?

Hebrews 6:1-8 speaks of the person who refuses to go on to maturity through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. However, he or she has no other option. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only Way and going back to the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment (vs 2) is comparable to crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh and putting Him to an open shame.

Now continue reading:

Hebrews 6:

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

The things that accompany salvation are revealed in the verses following vs 9:

vs 10 – your work and labor of love in ministering to fellow-believers;

vs 11 – the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end ... i.e. the steadfastness of one who is fully persuaded of his or her hope ... those who are faithful to the end;

vs 12 – not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

What is revealed in these verses is that in the life of the believer there is an evidence which accompanies salvation ... kind of like the verse in Ephesians which tells us God created us unto good works in which the believer is to walk in them:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

brightfame52 said:

how well do you, brightfame52, know God and the Lord Jesus Christ?

2 Peter 1:

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The verses in 2 Peter 1 tell the born again ones that it is through knowledge of God and the Lord Jesus Christ that we have grace and peace multiplied (vs 2) ... and all that pertains to life and godliness (vs 3) ... in the Lord Jesus Christ are the exceeding great and precious promises ... in the Lord Jesus Christ we are partakers of the divine nature and escape from the corruption that is in the world through lust (vs 4).

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

brightfame52 · Oct 15, 2023

The Saving Benefits of Christ's Death ! 3

Notice in addition that these things accompany them that God has called 2 Pet 1:3

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

So with Christ being given [Rom 8:32] all things also given that pertains to their complete Salvation was given, to effect a life of Godliness which includes Spiritual Life !

That word godliness eusebeia means:

I.reverence, respect

II.piety towards God, godliness

So one of the all things that are given us along with Christ is piety or fear towards God, reverence for Him, because by nature we have it not Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

So Christ's Death for us secures unto us a fear of God, also comes Faith or the acknowledging of the Truth Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

There is no godliness towards God without acknowledging His Truth as it is in Christ Jesus !

Remember we are given all things that pertain to Life and Godliness 2 Pet 1:3

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Yes, the Truth is also the Gospel, and so thats given with Christ, meaning that the acknowledgement of the Truth of the Gospel shall accompany the giving of Christ, which is simply belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 39

brightfame52 · Oct 15, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

... nope ... let's find out more about the context of Luke 2:30-32.

Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to the temple according to the law of the Lord:

Luke 2:

22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord; )

24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

... then we read about Simeon ... let's get a little background about who he was:

Luke 2:

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law

Now let's read what Simeon said:

Luke 2:28-32

28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

vs 28 – Simeon saw Jesus, recognized Him as Messiah, and gave praise and worship to God

vs 29-32 – Simeon could now depart in peace because he had seen Messiah ... Simeon had been waiting for the consolation of Israel (vs 25) ... the Holy Spirit had revealed to Simeon that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ (vs 26).

Simeon declared God's promise to Abraham all the way back in Genesis:

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Simeon also declared what was written in Scripture concerning Messiah being the light of the gentiles:

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

quit adding to Scripture ... read the verse just as it is written:

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

why is the Author speaking of better things of you? what is written in the previous verses?

Hebrews 6:1-8 speaks of the person who refuses to go on to maturity through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. However, he or she has no other option. The Lord Jesus Christ is the only Way and going back to the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment (vs 2) is comparable to crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh and putting Him to an open shame.

Now continue reading:

Hebrews 6:

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

The things that accompany salvation are revealed in the verses following vs 9:

vs 10 – your work and labor of love in ministering to fellow-believers;

vs 11 – the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end ... i.e. the steadfastness of one who is fully persuaded of his or her hope ... those who are faithful to the end;

vs 12 – not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

What is revealed in these verses is that in the life of the believer there is an evidence which accompanies salvation ... kind of like the verse in Ephesians which tells us God created us unto good works in which the believer is to walk in them:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

how well do you, brightfame52, know God and the Lord Jesus Christ?

2 Peter 1:

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The verses in 2 Peter 1 tell the born again ones that it is through knowledge of God and the Lord Jesus Christ that we have grace and peace multiplied (vs 2) ... and all that pertains to life and godliness (vs 3) ... in the Lord Jesus Christ are the exceeding great and precious promises ... in the Lord Jesus Christ we are partakers of the divine nature and escape from the corruption that is in the world through lust (vs 4).

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

More opposition to the Truth of the Saving Benefits of the Death of Christ.

reneweddaybyday · Oct 15, 2023

brightfame52 said:

2 Peter clearly states that the all things that pertain to life and godliness are effected through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue

It is through the knowledge of Him Who has called us that we become aware of all things that pertain to life and godliness.

Read the next several verses in 2 Peter 1 ...

2 Peter 3:

4 Whereby [through the knowledge of Him Who called us] are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now read vs 9 ...

2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

The born again one who does not diligently take time to know Him Who has called us to glory and virtue is blind ... cannot see afar off ... has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

How do we get to know Him? ... through study of Scripture ... rightly dividing the Word of Truth (2 Tim 2:15) ... through spending time in prayer and worship ... quiet time with Him ... through fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ ...

brightfame52 said:

your statement ignores what is made clear in 2 Peter 1 ... that the born again one is to be diligent in coming to the knowledge of Him Who has called us to glory and virtue.

brightfame52 said:

brightfame52, according to Scripture ...

a person hears the gospel of Christ.

Because the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe (Rom 1:16), once a person believes the gospel, he or she is born again through the power of God.

The moment a person is born again, he or she is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13).

Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, you believed

after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (regenerated)

since it appears you claim to have reverence, respect ... piety toward God, you should take the time to rightly divide the word of truth just as He instructs.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.

brightfame52 · Oct 17, 2023

Christ's Death has gathering power !

For it was not without reason Jesus said stated these words Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Here He promises that as an result of His being Lifted up from the Earth [meaning His Death by Crucifixion] He would draw all men to Himself, which denotes a total conversion experience ! That word draw has the same meaning or force as the words gather together here Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

This Vs 52 is stating that the effect of the One Man dying for the People in Vs 50-51, His death was in order that, He should gather together, the people or Children of God, not only of that nation, but out of all nations wherein they are scattered abroad Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

But the important fact here is how they were gathered together. That word or words in the greek sunago, and means to draw together, to bring together. This bringing or drawing together in one is the purposed result of His death ! The same thing is implied in Jesus words here Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

In which He brings the Sheep together into one fold, or all the Children of God, and they all follow their One Shepherd, The Lord Jesus Christ. This gathering of the People by Shiloh was known by Faith by Jacob Gen 49:10

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh[Christ] come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

So in essence Jn 12:32 is saying the same thing as Jn 11:50-52, and His dying or being lifted up is the author of the drawing or gathering together, which means conversion ! 39

John146 · Oct 17, 2023

brightfame52 said:

Christ's Death has gathering power !

For it was not without reason Jesus said stated these words Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Here He promises that as an result of His being Lifted up from the Earth [meaning His Death by Crucifixion] He would draw all men to Himself, which denotes a total conversion experience ! That word draw has the same meaning or force as the words gather together here Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

This Vs 52 is stating that the effect of the One Man dying for the People in Vs 50-51, His death was in order that, He should gather together, the people or Children of God, not only of that nation, but out of all nations wherein they are scattered abroad Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

But the important fact here is how they were gathered together. That word or words in the greek sunago, and means to draw together, to bring together. This bringing or drawing together in one is the purposed result of His death ! The same thing is implied in Jesus words here Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

In which He brings the Sheep together into one fold, or all the Children of God, and they all follow their One Shepherd, The Lord Jesus Christ. This gathering of the People by Shiloh was known by Faith by Jacob Gen 49:10

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh[Christ] come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

So in essence Jn 12:32 is saying the same thing as Jn 11:50-52, and His dying or being lifted up is the author of the drawing or gathering together, which means conversion ! 39

Sorry, to draw does not mean to gather. Nice try and sly exposition. And btw, all men does not mean some elect group. All men means all men.

John146 · Oct 17, 2023

brightfame52 said:

Christ's Death has gathering power !

For it was not without reason Jesus said stated these words Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Here He promises that as an result of His being Lifted up from the Earth [meaning His Death by Crucifixion] He would draw all men to Himself, which denotes a total conversion experience ! That word draw has the same meaning or force as the words gather together here Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

This Vs 52 is stating that the effect of the One Man dying for the People in Vs 50-51, His death was in order that, He should gather together, the people or Children of God, not only of that nation, but out of all nations wherein they are scattered abroad Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

But the important fact here is how they were gathered together. That word or words in the greek sunago, and means to draw together, to bring together. This bringing or drawing together in one is the purposed result of His death ! The same thing is implied in Jesus words here Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

In which He brings the Sheep together into one fold, or all the Children of God, and they all follow their One Shepherd, The Lord Jesus Christ. This gathering of the People by Shiloh was known by Faith by Jacob Gen 49:10

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh[Christ] come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

So in essence Jn 12:32 is saying the same thing as Jn 11:50-52, and His dying or being lifted up is the author of the drawing or gathering together, which means conversion ! 39

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

brightfame52 · Oct 17, 2023

John146 said:

Yes it does.

brightfame52 · Oct 17, 2023

John146 said:

Jn 1:9 is about the elect that are drawn, same as those in Jn 12:32

John146 · Oct 17, 2023

brightfame52 said:

Manipulation of God's word to fit a man made theology is not a good thing.

brightfame52 · Oct 18, 2023

John146 said:

The manipulation of Gods word is on your part to fit the religion of men.

brightfame52 · Oct 19, 2023

Puts on the Highway of Holiness !

Many in false religion sale short the accomplishment of the Death of Christ, instead of acknowledging that His Death effected Salvation experimentally for all whom He died, that it effects conversion to God, they deny it, saying that it only makes it possible, hence leaving it to the sinner to effect their Salvation, the sinner gets that Glory, not God !

The Death of Christ did redeem those He died for by paying a ransom, His Own Blood, and that had many consequences as an result. Isa 35:8-10

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

That way, is also called the Highway of Holiness ! Its that narrow way Jesus speaks of here Matt 7:13-14

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

But we find out from our text who that few who findeth that Narrow way, that way of being called the Highway of Holiness ! Its the redeemed of the Lord, it is promised they shall walk there !

Again notice Vs 9 makes a promise which states :

The redeemed shall walk there. The redeemed are those who have been redeemed by the precious blood of Christ 1 Pet 1:18-20, they are also the ransomed of the Lord Matt 20:28

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John Gill writes on the redeemed of Isa 35:9 :

but the redeemed shall walk there; without fear, as Kimchi adds, since no lion, or any beast of prey, shall be found upon it: the "redeemed" are the redeemed of the Lord, and by him, and are peculiarly his, being bought with his precious blood, redeemed from among men, and unto God, and from sin, the law, its curse, and condemnation; these "shall walk" in the way of life and salvation by Christ, in consequence of their being redeemed; which supposes life, strength, and wisdom, which are given them, and a proficiency or going forward: they "shall" walk here; though they have been blind, their eyes shall be opened to see this way; and, though weak, they shall have strength to walk in it; and, though foolish, they shall have wisdom to guide their feet with discretion; and, though they may stumble and fall, they shall rise again, and shall keep on walking to the end. 39

brightfame52 · Oct 21, 2023

It reconciles us to God !

2 Cor 5:18

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

All those for whom Christ died, by His Death alone, not only was God reconciled to them, but they are reconciled to God ! Thats right Believers [The us in in our text] are experimentally reconciled to God by Jesus Christ ! The word by dia is the greek prep that means primarily:

A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act

C.of means

i.by

ii.by the means of

II.through

A.the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

i.by reason of

ii.on account of

iii.because of for this reason

iv.therefore

v.on this account

The channel by which they acted in their conversion was by means of Jesus Christ !

The word reconciled katallassō :

I.to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

A.to reconcile (those who are at variance)

B.return to favour with, be reconciled to one

C.to receive one into favour

It denotes reconciling both parties that were at varience or contention or enmity, so that the enmity we have towards God by nature in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

That enmity is defeated, so that now we become reconciled to God in ourselves, we are no longer enemies in our minds by wicked works Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word reconciled here is the word apokatallassō and means:

I.to reconcile completely

II.to reconcile back again

III.bring back a former state of harmony

You see, Christ's reconciling death in order for it to be successful and to have accomplished the will of God completely, it must not only legally reconcile God to us, but at the same time stimulate our experimental reconciliation / conversion back to God ! 39

reneweddaybyday · Oct 21, 2023

brightfame52 said:

nope ... Jesus was not speaking of a "total conversion experience !" in verse 32. The next verse tells us what Jesus was telling the people:

John 12:32-33 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

In your selected verses, Jesus was speaking of His death by crucifixion ... He was not speaking of a "total conversion experience !"

In vss 35-36, Jesus said Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light.

so it is in vss 35-36 that Jesus speaks of a "total conversion experience !" (which you would know if if you cared anything about context).

brightfame52 said:

um ... nope ... just more of your twisting of words.

the Greek word sunagó in John 11:52 is the Greek word sunagó.

the Greek word elkō in John 12:32 is the Greek word elkō.

and, despite your wishful thinking, they are not one and the same ... nor are they interchangeable.

When God says sunagó He means sunagó ... when God says elkō He means elkō.

brightfame52 said:

... I already showed you the verses in John 12 which refer to "conversion !" ...

John 12:35-36 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

your futile attempt to align Scripture to your dogma has again failed. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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reneweddaybyday · Oct 21, 2023

brightfame52 said:

"for all whom He died" ...

the Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind ... all descendants of Adam:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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