Has anyone found secret messages in the bible?

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posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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In Matthew 16:19 Jesus said: "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Do you really think all Christians have the power to bind and loose?
There are often nuances lost in translation because English doesn't have the same tenses as Greek.

What is literally said is 'what you bind on earth will have already been bound in heaven'

in this sense then only God has these powers, and uses men to do His will on earth, and as the Psalm says, "forever oh LORD, Your word is settled in heaven"

Young's Literal -
and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.
 

FRB72

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Sep 27, 2023
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Wrong. The word catholic means universal or all encompassing, not general or non-specific church. It was meant to be referred to as one universal church, not one big "general" church that is one of many others.
I think that things change when you see the word “Catholic” as more of a branding thing than an objective truth. Take a political party that claims to be the “party of law and order”. The inference is that the other parties do not encompass these values (which may or may not be true).

In the same way, the insofar as the Catholic Church accurately and truthfully represents Biblical truth, it is on solid ground. On the other hand, it is perfectly possible that if Catholicism strayed from that truth and other Christian groups positioned themselves on the solid ground of scripture, that they in turn would be the true “catholics” and the Catholic Church would be a misnomer.
 

posthuman

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Again with your vague opinions and no proof. Who are you to decide what the proper exegesis of this verse is? Hundreds of millions of Christians, including some highly experienced Bible scholars are split on this issue. So be specific and provide actual evidence.
Did you read the reference to Tertullian i gave you?

please explain where you agree with him, and where you do not agree with him, please provide three proofs for each point on which you believe you are right and he is wrong.
and do it concisely.

lol
 

selahsays

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May 31, 2023
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I'm not as concerned about textual criticism as I am about basic Christian principles, such as which church if any is the one true church, and which commandments we need to follow. So let's get that squared away before we talk about less important details.
The true Church is built upon the Rock, Jesus Christ.
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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Again with your vague opinions and no proof. Who are you to decide what the proper exegesis of this verse is? Hundreds of millions of Christians, including some highly experienced Bible scholars are split on this issue. So be specific and provide actual evidence.
But his declaration about Messiah's person led to a declaration of Messiah's program. Peter (Petros, masc.) was strong like a rock, but Jesus added that on this rock (petra, fem.) He would build His church. Because of this change in Greek words, many conservative scholars believe that Jesus is now building His church on Himself. Others hold that the church is built on Peter and the other apostles as the building's foundation stones (Ep 2:20; Rev 21:14). Still other scholars say that the church is built on Peter's testimony. It seems best to understand that Jesus was praising Peter for his accurate statement about Him, and was introducing His work of building the church on Himself (1Co 3:11).

Building His church was a yet-future work of Jesus Christ, for He had not yet started the process. He said, I will build (future tense) My church, but His program for the nation Israel had to be concluded before another program could be set in motion. This is probably why Jesus said not even the gates of hades would overcome this program. Jews would understand hades' gates to refer to physical death. Jesus was thus telling the disciples His death would not prevent His work of building the church. Later (Mt 16:21) He spoke of His imminent death. He was therefore anticipating His death and His victory over death through the Resurrection.

His church would then begin to be built, starting on the day of Pentecost, and Peter and the other apostles would have important roles in it. He declared that Peter would be given significant authority, the keys of the kingdom of heaven. A “key” was a sign of authority, for a trusted steward kept the keys to his master's possessions and dispensed them accordingly (cf. “the keys of death and hades” [Rev 1:18] and “the key of David” [Rev 3:7], which Jesus possesses).

Peter was told he would possess the keys and be able to bind and loose people. These were decisions Peter was to implement as he received instruction from heaven, for the binding and loosing occurred there first. Peter simply carried out God's directions. This privilege of binding and loosing was seen in Peter's life as he had the privilege on the day of Pentecost to proclaim the gospel and announce to all those who responded in saving faith that their sins had been forgiven (Ac 2). He was able to do the same thing with the household of Cornelius (Ac 10-11; cf. Ac 15:19-20). The same privilege was given all the disciples (Jn 20:22-23).

After making this great declaration about His future church program, Jesus told the disciples not to tell anyone that He is the Christ, the Messiah. The Lord knew it was too late for the nation to respond to His offer, and His rejection was drawing near. There was no reason for His disciples to be trying to convince a nation that had already turned from Him.
 

selahsays

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May 31, 2023
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In Matthew 16:19 Jesus said: "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Do you really think all Christians have the power to bind and loose?
. . . . .
It is Jesus who has the power. ….And true Christians who know the Lord are given "the keys of the kingdom of heaven"—they are given the keys to the door leading to salvation and entry into the kingdom of heaven—by Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Christ Jesus is the "door.” It is about Salvation and admittance into the kingdom of Heaven that the “binding“ and “loosing” is about.

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me; because the LORD hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

- Isaiah 61:1 (KJV)



 
Jun 20, 2022
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In Matthew 16:19 Jesus said: "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Do you really think all Christians have the power to bind and loose?
i think this Verse, like the Verse, when Jesus asks for THOSE [the Disciples] the Father has given Him, to ""not be Taken out of this World but to remain and do the Will of God.""

Jesus, was Specifically Praying about His Disciples.

of course, OSAS, adulterated to mean everyone is given by the Father, but Jesus, is Specific, it's ALL about the Disciples, He is Praying to the Father about.

and i also believe that Matthew 16:19 is also only for the Disciples.


it's the Verses that say [[whomsoever - whoever - ALL - Everyone]] when we know it applies to EVERYONE. ---> like: whosoever BELIEVES... not the specific predestined chosen...nope, ANYONE can be Saved if they choose to Believe.

like Paul said, i wished ALL of YOU Spoke in Tongues.

meaning, only some do and some don't, but Paul, desired Everyone did.
 
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the Disciples were [[Given]] an Insight, that No One Else, completely and fully SAW and Witnessed First Hand.

15. But he said to them, "Who is it you say that I am?"
16. Shimeon Kaypha answered, "You are The Messiah, The Son of THE LIVING GOD".
17. Yeshua answered and said to him, "You are Blessed, Shimeon Bar Yona*, because flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in Heaven."
18. "Also I say to you, that you are Kaypha, and upon this stone I shall build my church, and the gates of Sheol will not withstand it."
19. "To you I shall give the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven; everything that you will bind in the earth will have been bound in Heaven, and anything that you will release in the earth will have been released in Heaven."
20. Then he ordered his disciples to tell no man that he is The Messiah.

this was specific to the Disciples for what Their Role would Require.

and possibly could be even more Specific to Peter [Kaypha], since we know, about his Role Acts Chapters 2 through 12.
 
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^
He Preached, explained the Prophecy of Joel, even heard the Holy Spirit tell him someone lied and they died on the Spot! he even was first to say, Baptize the Gentiles with Water [Acts 10].

He was the immediate Wrecking Ball, after the Ascension, before Paul.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Also I say to you, that you are Kaypha, and upon this stone I shall build my church, and the gates of Sheol will not withstand it."
If we're going to use other languages intermingled with the English let's be thorough...

I say to you, that you are petros (a pebble), and upon this te petra (the boulder) I shall build My church
 

NTNT58

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Sep 20, 2023
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i did in fact answer your questions about whether the RCC is the only true church and if Christians must physically keep sabbath quite concisely.
i said: nope, and nope.

seeing that the topic of your thread is "secret messages in the Bible" isn't it awfully important to your counting of words, that the Bible consist of the right words and the right number of them?
The original question was asking for evidence, not your opinion. You did not provide any proof.
 

NTNT58

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Sep 20, 2023
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I think that things change when you see the word “Catholic” as more of a branding thing than an objective truth. Take a political party that claims to be the “party of law and order”. The inference is that the other parties do not encompass these values (which may or may not be true).

In the same way, the insofar as the Catholic Church accurately and truthfully represents Biblical truth, it is on solid ground. On the other hand, it is perfectly possible that if Catholicism strayed from that truth and other Christian groups positioned themselves on the solid ground of scripture, that they in turn would be the true “catholics” and the Catholic Church would be a misnomer.
It's not about which church is corrupt and which isn't, it's about God choosing specific people to lead his congregation. He chose Moses to be the first leader of the OT, and in Matthew 16:19 Jesus said the Pharasees have the authority of Moses because the power was passed down to them. As you're probably aware, the Pharasees were exteremely corrupt, but Jesus still affirmed their power. After Jesus gave the keys of heaven to Peter, that power was passed unto him. You would have to disprove the meaning of the keys of heaven as something not given exclusively to Peter in order to refute the RCC's claim to power.
 

NTNT58

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Sep 20, 2023
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Did you read the reference to Tertullian i gave you?

please explain where you agree with him, and where you do not agree with him, please provide three proofs for each point on which you believe you are right and he is wrong.
and do it concisely.

lol
Basically, he's saying the power to bind and loose belongs to the spiritual church, not the physical. And that's a good point that I always make against Papists, but that doesn't disprove the physical authority of the Catholic church or Papal succession.
 

NTNT58

Active member
Sep 20, 2023
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But his declaration about Messiah's person led to a declaration of Messiah's program. Peter (Petros, masc.) was strong like a rock, but Jesus added that on this rock (petra, fem.) He would build His church. Because of this change in Greek words, many conservative scholars believe that Jesus is now building His church on Himself. Others hold that the church is built on Peter and the other apostles as the building's foundation stones (Ep 2:20; Rev 21:14). Still other scholars say that the church is built on Peter's testimony. It seems best to understand that Jesus was praising Peter for his accurate statement about Him, and was introducing His work of building the church on Himself (11Co 3:1).

Building His church was a yet-future work of Jesus Christ, for He had not yet started the process. He said, I will build (future tense) My church, but His program for the nation Israel had to be concluded before another program could be set in motion. This is probably why Jesus said not even the gates of hades would overcome this program. Jews would understand hades' gates to refer to physical death. Jesus was thus telling the disciples His death would not prevent His work of building the church. Later (Mt 16:21) He spoke of His imminent death. He was therefore anticipating His death and His victory over death through the Resurrection.

His church would then begin to be built, starting on the day of Pentecost, and Peter and the other apostles would have important roles in it. He declared that Peter would be given significant authority, the keys of the kingdom of heaven. A “key” was a sign of authority, for a trusted steward kept the keys to his master's possessions and dispensed them accordingly (cf. “the keys of death and hades” [Rev 1:18] and “the key of David” [Rev 3:7], which Jesus possesses).

Peter was told he would possess the keys and be able to bind and loose people. These were decisions Peter was to implement as he received instruction from heaven, for the binding and loosing occurred there first. Peter simply carried out God's directions. This privilege of binding and loosing was seen in Peter's life as he had the privilege on the day of Pentecost to proclaim the gospel and announce to all those who responded in saving faith that their sins had been forgiven (Ac 2). He was able to do the same thing with the household of Cornelius (Ac 10-11; cf. Ac 15:19-20). The same privilege was given all the disciples (Jn 20:22-23).

After making this great declaration about His future church program, Jesus told the disciples not to tell anyone that He is the Christ, the Messiah. The Lord knew it was too late for the nation to respond to His offer, and His rejection was drawing near. There was no reason for His disciples to be trying to convince a nation that had already turned from Him.
So how does this refute Peter having special authority, which is passed down to his successors? Isiah 22 talks about a steward getting keys and according to tradition of that time, those keys would be passed down to his successor.
 

NTNT58

Active member
Sep 20, 2023
525
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i think this Verse, like the Verse, when Jesus asks for THOSE [the Disciples] the Father has given Him, to ""not be Taken out of this World but to remain and do the Will of God.""

Jesus, was Specifically Praying about His Disciples.

of course, OSAS, adulterated to mean everyone is given by the Father, but Jesus, is Specific, it's ALL about the Disciples, He is Praying to the Father about.

and i also believe that Matthew 16:19 is also only for the Disciples.


it's the Verses that say [[whomsoever - whoever - ALL - Everyone]] when we know it applies to EVERYONE. ---> like: whosoever BELIEVES... not the specific predestined chosen...nope, ANYONE can be Saved if they choose to Believe.

like Paul said, i wished ALL of YOU Spoke in Tongues.

meaning, only some do and some don't, but Paul, desired Everyone did.
Mathew 16:19 parallels with Isiah 22 where a king gives keys to his stewart. Those keys are passed down to his successors.
 

NTNT58

Active member
Sep 20, 2023
525
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If we're going to use other languages intermingled with the English let's be thorough...

I say to you, that you are petros (a pebble), and upon this te petra (the boulder) I shall build My church
Disciples most likely spoke Aramaic, and the word for rock is the same in Aramaic (kêfā). It's generally feminine, so in Greek it was changed to masculine for Peter.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,838
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Disciples most likely spoke Aramaic, and the word for rock is the same in Aramaic (kêfā). It's generally feminine, so in Greek it was changed to masculine for Peter.
the scripture God gave us happens to be in Greek.

i hear סלע means boulder in Hebrew.