Sunday Worship?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,460
745
113
Scripture reveals Jesus is our righteous Judge

John 5:22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

In order to understand Romans 8:1 you need to refer to the entire passage...


Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh (sin), but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh (sin) set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh (sin) cannot please God.


Basically there is no condemnation (the wages of sin is death) if we are living in Christ. Those living in sin (flesh) is hostile to God's law. It's something the carnal mind can't understand according to Paul. Living in Christ we are in harmony with His law and in doing so there is no condemnation because we are keeping it.
Now read the next paragraph after Romans 8:8.

Romans 8:9-10
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

In Christ the flesh is dead already, condemned.

Sin has destroyed our flesh, we are dead in Christ, so that we will rise again.

We have the Spirit of the Christ and that is our righteousness, that is our life.

See how this is Christ's work for us and Christ's work in us, this is not from us.

Avoid blowing your own legal trumpet.

Never boast in anything but Jesus Christ.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,602
1,092
113
Australia
. And under the New Covenant He established "the Lord's Day" (the first day of the week) as the Christian Sabbath
Please use bibles verses. When did Jesus establish Sunday?
The tradition was to call Sunday the Lord's Day but there is no biblical support for the change.
Jesus did rise on Sunday from the dead but that is because He was resting on the Sabbath.

Sunday is not sanctified anywhere in the Holy word.
The seventh day is sanctified.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exo 20:8 KJV Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isa 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.
"Hallow MY sabbath"
Who's Sabbath? It is God's sabbath.

There is no evidence at all that Rev 1: 10 is talking about Sunday.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,602
1,092
113
Australia
But there is no such commandment given to the Church. So Sabbatarians are in fact opposing God by insisting on going back to the Law of Moses. And since Paul called the Sabbath a shadow, it is hardly likely that he would insist on Christians observing the seventh day Sabbath. According to Hebrews, believers have entered into the Sabbath of God. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (Heb 4:3)
The Church grow out of the Israel nation.
Just because a law was given to Israel does not mean that those laws are not the same for Spiritual Israel (the Christian church). You would agree with me for 9 of the 10 commandments.
I agree that the shadow laws finished at the cross. Their purpose came to an end.
The sabbaths that were introduced with the other cerimonial laws did finish.
For example Lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
There were many yearly sabbath that fell on different days each year but they were connected with the feasts and ordinances that ended at the cross.

When Paul talks about a sabbath being a shadow that passed away it is these sabbaths. .

The weekly sabbath is different. It was not a shadow..... it goes back to before sin and was made holy at creation so it was not a shadow of the plan of salvation. It was not a shadow of the cross. it is not a shadow of redemption. It is a memorial of creation. And resting in Jesus is just as important today as it was from the start.

It is hard to rest in Jesus when we are working hard and physically occupied.
The gift that God gave us at creation is a beautiful thing that is spiritually, mentally, and physically a blessing.
 

Freth

New member
Jul 11, 2020
5
2
3
The Two Great Commandments


What are the two great commandments according to Jesus?

Matthew 22:35-39 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
  • Love God.
  • Love your neighbor.

Why did Jesus call these two commandments great?

The two great commandments sum up God's character and His law.​
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
1 John 4:3-4 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 4:7-10 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
  • God is love.
  • Love reflects God's character.
    • Love God.
    • Love one another.
    • Every one that loves is born of God and knows God.
    • He that dwells in love dwells in God and God in him.
  • The Ten Commandments show how to love God (1-4) and love your neighbor (5-10).

Were the two great commandments new?

No.​

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.
Jesus was quoting Old Testament scripture. These are not new commandments.​

Is love linked to commandment keeping directly?

Yes.​

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 Thessalonians 3:11-13 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you. And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
  • Love God
    • Keep His word, keep His commandments.
  • Love your neighbor.
    • Keep His commandments.
    • Increase and abound in love toward one another, toward all men.
  • That He may stablish your heart unblameable in holiness.

Was Jesus doing His own will when He quoted the two great commandments from Old Testament scripture?

No.​

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Jesus was doing to the will of the Father.​

What did Jesus hang on these two commandments?

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
All the law and the prophets hang on love God and love your neighbor.​

What did Jesus say about the law?

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
He didn't come to destroy the law.​
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
  • All is not fulfilled.
    • God's promises are not yet fulfilled.
    • Jesus has not returned.
    • Heaven and earth have not passed.
    • One jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven
  • Do not break the commandments, and do not teach others to break the commandments; do them and teach them.
  • Matthew 5:27-32 quotes the adultery commandment, giving context as to what commandments (note, plural) Jesus was referring to—the Ten Commandments.
  • He specified a standard of righteousness.
Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law. What is the opposite of destroy? Fulfill. What did He mean by fulfill?​
  • Fulfill cannot mean bringing the law to an end as Jesus stated He did not come to destroy the law.
  • Strong's G4137 fulfil (plēroō): to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment.
    • All the law and the prophets are hung on love.
      • To cause all the law to be obeyed. Includes the Sabbath commandment.
      • To cause all the promises of the prophets to receive fulfillment. Not yet fulfilled.

Conclusion


Jesus pointed to the Father during His ministry.
  • He did the will of the Father.
  • He spoke the word of the Father.
  • He taught the law of God.

Jesus was quoting Old Testament scripture (love God; Deuteronomy 6:5, love your neighbor; Leviticus 19:18) when He taught the two great commandments (Matthew 22:35-40).
  • The two great commandments reflect God's character of love, and sum up the commandments of God.
    • "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3
    • "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments." 1 John 5:2
  • All the law and the prophets hang on the two great commandments of love.
    • "All" is not exclusionary.
    • All the law and the prophets are hung upon love, joined to it; not replaced, not done away with.
  • The Ten Commandments show how to love God (1-4) and love your neighbor (5-10).

Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill.
  • He stated verily (truly, certainly), "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
  • All is not fulfilled. Jesus has not returned. Heaven and earth have not passed. God's promises have not received fulfillment.

The Sabbath.
  • The Sabbath commandment is one of four commandments that show how to love God.
    • Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
    • Six days shall you labor and do all your work.
    • But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.
    • In it you shall not do any work work.
    • Why? The commandment tells us why.
      • It points to creation (Genesis 2:1-3): For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

All is not yet fulfilled.
  • The law of God is binding.
  • The Sabbath is binding.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,602
1,092
113
Australia
FRETH
Well said... long but to the point.
Don't be disappointed if people don't see the truth. Jesus did miracles and many still didn't believe.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

And the sabbath was given at creation. Gen 2.
 

stilllearning

Well-known member
Oct 4, 2021
520
279
63
Ok to make sense of the scriptures quoted. As well as why the Apostles did not institute the Sabbath for gentile believers we have to understand that unique time period of classical history. First of all it is nuts for folks to say that Constantine was a type of anti-christ changing the times and seasons.

For one when he made Christianity the official religion he also aligned the way Rome kept the week. He made the week biblical, he adopted this practice and made it official. He made the week 7 days long as prior to this the Roman week was 8 days long.

This is why the Paul said as such that the day you worshipped the Lord was Holy and between you and God and why he said so to the gentile believers. Lets look at the difference between a Roman week and a Jewish week and how the sabbath for gentiles would have fallen all over the days of the week.

RW 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
JW 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

So say for the sake of argument on week one both Jewish believers and Gentile believers go to church on Saturday day 7. Well week 2 that will be day 6 for the gentile. Day 5 for week 3. Day 4 for week 4. Day 3 for week 5. Day 2 for week 6. Day 1 for week 7. Day 8 for week 8. Then they are aligned again in week 9 and both on day 7.

So by freeing them to go to church on what day they hold Holy unto the Lord they can have fellowship with their fellow gentile believers on a set day every week that is unique to them and their 8 day week. So the apostles were not adding any undue hardship to serve the Lord for gentile believers. They were keeping with what the Lord got on to the religious leaders about saying they strained at a gnat and swallowed a camel they kept the letter of the law but did not keep the spirit of the law.

God as the judge of the heart was able to take glory in the fact that gentile believers were following the Lord in spirit and worshipping him and honoring him on the sabbath or church day that they did. So the apostles and Paul himself made this possible for gentile believers by instituting they could serve the Lord on the day they held Holy to him.

So I think we should all follow our conscience and serve the Lord on the day we hold Holy. However, if Saturday be that day and believe so because that was what was commanded. I think the argument for that should not be just a halfway argument. The full command should be followed. Which it clearly states you are to work 6 days a week as well. If you only work 5 days a week and not 6 then how are you following the complete and full command?

Anyway these things are for each believer to settle in his own heart and have a clear conscience before God as to what day he worships and how many days a week he works.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,135
13,146
113
58
Right in the Sabbath commandment it says its for everyone

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Who was the Lord addressing here in Exodus? Exodus 20:2 - I am the Lord your God, who brought YOU out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. The Israelites and not the entire human race. In regard to your stranger, notice the key words - "within your gates." That's not everyone in the world.

Moses gives the reason the sabbath was given to the nation of Israel: “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought YOU out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore, the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the sabbath day.” (Deuteronomy 5:15)

Sabbath observance was a sign between God and Israel: “The Israelites are to observe the sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.” (Exodus 31:16-17)

Exodus 35:1 - Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and said to them, “These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do: 2. For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3. You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.” Did you get that? OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL, God said to them.

Jesus said it was made for man and the Greek word here means mankind

Mark 2:27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
In regard to Mark 2:27, "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.." This statement was in response to the accusation by the Pharisees that Jesus' disciples were breaking the law regarding resting on the sabbath while going through the fields and plucking heads of grain. (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-28; Luke 6:1-5)

Jesus responded by giving an example from the Old Testament in which David was once in need of food and was given consecrated bread that was only lawful for the priests to eat (1 Samuel 21:1-6). The bread served a practical need for David and his men, just as with Jesus and His disciples, the grain served a practical need. David and his men were not acting sinfully in eating the showbread, and neither were Jesus’ disciples by plucking heads of grain on the sabbath. Jesus concludes, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. So, the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath." (Mark 2:27-28)

First off, the sabbath was intended to help people, not burden them. In contrast with the agonizing, daily work as slaves in Egypt, the Israelites were commanded to take a day of rest each week under the Mosaic Law. The Pharisees had turned the sabbath into a burden by adding restrictions beyond what God’s law said. The disciples had not broken God’s law, they merely violated the Pharisees’ own legalistic, interpretation of the law. Jesus reminded the Pharisees of the original intent of the sabbath rest. Jesus' statement does not teach that the sabbath was made for ALL mankind, as you suppose. The Israelites were of mankind, along with strangers within their gates.

Jesus said, "the sabbath was made for man," not all mankind. When Scripture is meant to be inclusive of all mankind it plainly says so. See (Matthew 28:19; John 3:16; Acts 2:17; I Timothy 2:4; Titus 2:11). These verses clearly indicate that when God offers something to all mankind, He clearly offers it to all.

The sabbath was not given to all the nations. It was given to the nation of Israel. Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15, which gives the commandments to Israel. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.

Nehemiah 9:13 - "Then You came down on Mount Sinai and spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, and laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses." *Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses. Period.

CONTINUED..
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,135
13,146
113
58
The Sabbath was created first Gen 2:1-3 Exodus 20:11 than the Sabbath. Jesus hallowed the Sabbath at Creation, but you think Adam and Eve said no thanks?
Now although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the sabbath being kept before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. *Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses. Show us in Genesis where Adam and Eve were commanded to keep the sabbath. I'll be waiting.

Isaiah 56:1 Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.

6: “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant
In regard to Isaiah 56:6-7, foreigners were to "join themselves to the Lord;" and "love the name of the Lord;" and "be his servants;" and "take hold of God's covenant." The OLD COVENANT. But to do this they had to be circumcised, for God said: “No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary." (Ezekiel 44:9) When Gentiles thus "joined themselves to the Lord" they ceased being Gentiles and became proselytes to the Jewish religion. They kept the Sabbath AS JEWISH PROSELYTES, NOT as Gentiles.

But where are Gentiles as Gentiles ever commanded to keep the Sabbath? Furthermore, if the Sabbath was of universal application, why were the Gentiles called "strangers?" The apostle Paul, speaking of the Gentiles during the Jewish age, says they were "strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world?" (Ephesians 2:12)

And when God gave the sabbath commandment at Sinai, why did he make it binding ONLY on "the stranger that is within your gates?" (Exodus 20:10) Where is the passage that proves the sabbath was binding on the Gentile OUTSIDE the gates? All this shows the sabbath was NOT universally applied. If it had been, there would have been no "strangers from the covenants of promise."

If you do a study in scripture on the sabbath, most have a thus saith the Lord, as you cannot get any greater Authority. Not once in all of scripture does it say we no longer need to keep the Sabbath commandment.
Galatians 4:4 - But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, so of course Jesus kept the sabbath and so did the Israelites under the law. Now show us in the New Testament where the Church is commanded to keep the sabbath. Instead, we read in Colossians 2:16,17 - Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

The faithful followers of Jesus kept it faithfully in the NC Luke 23:56 the apostles kept every Sabbath faithfully Acts 13:42-44 Acts 18:4 Jesus kept the Sabbath faithfully Luke 4:16 John 15:10 God kept the Sabbath at Creation Exo 20:11 seems like the group to trust, especially since there is no scripture saying God sanctified any other day or made holy except the seventh day Sabbath. He deemed all other days work days Exo 20:9 not holy days. This is what God says when we do that again, thus saith the Lord.
The faithful followers of Jesus under the old covenant of law, prior to the new covenant being established kept the sabbath. In regard to Acts 13:42-44 and Acts 18:4, see post #451. - Sunday Worship? - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

Eze 22:26 Her priests have [a]violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

The Sabbath is God's holy day He said so clearly Isa 58:13, Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:8-11 and no man has the authority to countermand God. Weare warned the Sabbath would be changed but not by God Dan 7:25 and we see history playing out this prophecy perfectly. We can either follow the majority or follow God. Jesus tells us which path to take, trust Him! Mat 5:19-13, Mark 7:7-8 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 19:17-19, Math 15:10 John 14:15 Exo 20:6
You spend a lot of time in the Old Testament under the old covenant of law and before. You seem to mix the old and new covenants together and fail to rightly divide the word of truth. I can see that you are unable to make the complete transition from the old covenant into the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:13) You turn obeying the 10 commandments (with a heavy emphasis on sabbath keeping) into a "legalistic prescription" for salvation which is "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,135
13,146
113
58
Scripture tells us...

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
In regard to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" here carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows continuous, willful, habitual action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation and became unsanctified, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) In Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. *So to go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled underfoot the Son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't always necessarily refer to salvation.

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses the term "sanctified" to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So, the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved in every case, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with Scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So, after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in this Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with these believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received and trampling underfoot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with these Hebrew Christians was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
In regard to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church) I read Matthew 7:22 and was astonished! I remember thinking to myself, these many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of the natural man who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works.

Jesus never new these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 which means they were never saved. These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and not in Christ alone. Sound familiar? ;) Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ - Romans 3:24-28; Philippians 3:9) was still stained with sin.

Notice that verse 23 says practice lawlessness. In 1 John 3:10, we read - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. It's children of the devil who practice lawlessness and not children of God.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

*John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. This is God's will for us unto salvation. Not to be confused with God's will for us after salvation. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18 for example)

Instead of Lord, Lord, didn't WE, the correct answer for these many people in Matthew 7:22 would have been Lord, Lord, didn't YOU die for our sins, were buried and rise again the third day to provide for us eternal life? We trust in you alone as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (John 10:9; 14:6; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Jesus has given us everything and asks for so little in return, many do not accept His free gift of salvation but repenting and receiving God's sanctification of all sin and unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 Our salvation is from sin, not in sin Mat 1:21
Many will not accept His free gift of salvation, which is by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Sadly, for many their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith. Those who repent (change their mind) and place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Acts 20:21) Receiving the free gift of salvation is not about obtaining it through sinless perfection.

Notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10) Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness.
 
Dec 13, 2023
902
146
43
Ok to make sense of the scriptures quoted. As well as why the Apostles did not institute the Sabbath for gentile believers we have to understand that unique time period of classical history. First of all it is nuts for folks to say that Constantine was a type of anti-christ changing the times and seasons.

For one when he made Christianity the official religion he also aligned the way Rome kept the week. He made the week biblical, he adopted this practice and made it official. He made the week 7 days long as prior to this the Roman week was 8 days long.

This is why the Paul said as such that the day you worshipped the Lord was Holy and between you and God and why he said so to the gentile believers. Lets look at the difference between a Roman week and a Jewish week and how the sabbath for gentiles would have fallen all over the days of the week.

RW 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
JW 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

So say for the sake of argument on week one both Jewish believers and Gentile believers go to church on Saturday day 7. Well week 2 that will be day 6 for the gentile. Day 5 for week 3. Day 4 for week 4. Day 3 for week 5. Day 2 for week 6. Day 1 for week 7. Day 8 for week 8. Then they are aligned again in week 9 and both on day 7.

So by freeing them to go to church on what day they hold Holy unto the Lord they can have fellowship with their fellow gentile believers on a set day every week that is unique to them and their 8 day week. So the apostles were not adding any undue hardship to serve the Lord for gentile believers. They were keeping with what the Lord got on to the religious leaders about saying they strained at a gnat and swallowed a camel they kept the letter of the law but did not keep the spirit of the law.

God as the judge of the heart was able to take glory in the fact that gentile believers were following the Lord in spirit and worshipping him and honoring him on the sabbath or church day that they did. So the apostles and Paul himself made this possible for gentile believers by instituting they could serve the Lord on the day they held Holy to him.

So I think we should all follow our conscience and serve the Lord on the day we hold Holy. However, if Saturday be that day and believe so because that was what was commanded. I think the argument for that should not be just a halfway argument. The full command should be followed. Which it clearly states you are to work 6 days a week as well. If you only work 5 days a week and not 6 then how are you following the complete and full command?

Anyway these things are for each believer to settle in his own heart and have a clear conscience before God as to what day he worships and how many days a week he works.
God made the weekly cycle that started at Creation and that has never changed. God named the days- day 1, day 2 day , day 3 etc. but God gave the seventh day a special name and called if the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo 20:10 and He said it was My holy day in His very own Words Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:8-11 Isaiah 58:13. The fact the Sabbath is still called the Sabbath all throughout the NT shows it never changed and continues on for eternity Isa 66:22-23

God preserved this weekly cycle and regardless what calendar one uses, the first day will always be the first day and the seventh day will always be the Sabbath. That is why in almost all ancient languages the Sabbath literally means Saturday.

chart-of-the-week.pdf (sabbathtruth.com)

The change in the Sabbath was predicted in scripture and not by God Dan 7:25 and the Sabbath is both a time (every seventh day) and law (the Sabbath commandment) The devil has been working to deceive people since the beginning of time and are warned deceives the whole world, which is the majority. God deemed all other days working days except the Sabbath that He claims as His. God only blessed, sanctified and made holy the seventh day Sabbath. Once God blesses something man cannot reverse. Numbers 23:20

I believe it is quite insulting to God to take a day God made for work and labors and exalt it above the day He made holy, sanctified and blessed so He can spend time with us as we cannot sanctify ourselves, only God can. Ezekiel 20:12 He in His own Words tells us so.

Eze 22:26 Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

Sunday worship came from the pagan tradition of sun worship in the third century. God calls that an abomination. Ezekiel 8:16-17 I believe the Sabbath is our test because it shows our loyalty to God the Creator and shows we are worshipping the One True God. Eze 20:20 the only God who has the power to Create and Sanctify the same God of Judgement Revelation 14:7 Just the Adam and Eve had a test in the Garden over a Tree. It's more than a day and its more than a tree, it is our allegiance and loyalty to God to obey Him the way He asked, not the way we want.

God is calling His people out of our false teachings Revelation 18:4 as we must worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and Jesus in His own Word said when we keep traditions over obeying the commandments of God and quoted directly from the Ten Commandments, their heart is far from Him (opposite of the NC Heb 8:10) and one worships in vain.

God never had the majority that were faithful in scripture and now, but He has always had a faithful remnant who keep the commandments of God and faith of Jesus Rev 14:12 Rev 12:17.

God does not change, the main difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is Jesus. Animal sacrifices for sin (breaking God's law 1 John 3:4) always pointed forward to Jesus who took the penalty of sin for us- the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23 what He did not do is take away the law that defines sin the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 and He made that clear heaven and earth would pass away before one dot from His law would change. Most Christians do not believe His teachings but believe in Jesus, which I do not believe this is saving faith according to His own Words Mat 7:21-23. We need the faith of Jesus, the same faith He had to walk as He did - keeping God's commandments including the Sabbath He is our example, our way, the door and we are to follow Him.
 
Dec 13, 2023
902
146
43
Who was the Lord addressing here in Exodus? Exodus 20:2 - I am the Lord your God, who brought YOU out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. The Israelites and not the entire human race. In regard to your stranger, notice the key words - "within your gates." That's not everyone in the world.

Moses gives the reason the sabbath was given to the nation of Israel: “Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought YOU out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore, the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the sabbath day.” (Deuteronomy 5:15)

Sabbath observance was a sign between God and Israel: “The Israelites are to observe the sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.” (Exodus 31:16-17)

Exodus 35:1 - Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and said to them, “These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do: 2. For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3. You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.” Did you get that? OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL, God said to them.

In regard to Mark 2:27, "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.." This statement was in response to the accusation by the Pharisees that Jesus' disciples were breaking the law regarding resting on the sabbath while going through the fields and plucking heads of grain. (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-28; Luke 6:1-5)

Jesus responded by giving an example from the Old Testament in which David was once in need of food and was given consecrated bread that was only lawful for the priests to eat (1 Samuel 21:1-6). The bread served a practical need for David and his men, just as with Jesus and His disciples, the grain served a practical need. David and his men were not acting sinfully in eating the showbread, and neither were Jesus’ disciples by plucking heads of grain on the sabbath. Jesus concludes, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. So, the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath." (Mark 2:27-28)

First off, the sabbath was intended to help people, not burden them. In contrast with the agonizing, daily work as slaves in Egypt, the Israelites were commanded to take a day of rest each week under the Mosaic Law. The Pharisees had turned the sabbath into a burden by adding restrictions beyond what God’s law said. The disciples had not broken God’s law, they merely violated the Pharisees’ own legalistic, interpretation of the law. Jesus reminded the Pharisees of the original intent of the sabbath rest. Jesus' statement does not teach that the sabbath was made for ALL mankind, as you suppose. The Israelites were of mankind, along with strangers within their gates.

Jesus said, "the sabbath was made for man," not all mankind. When Scripture is meant to be inclusive of all mankind it plainly says so. See (Matthew 28:19; John 3:16; Acts 2:17; I Timothy 2:4; Titus 2:11). These verses clearly indicate that when God offers something to all mankind, He clearly offers it to all.

The sabbath was not given to all the nations. It was given to the nation of Israel. Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15, which gives the commandments to Israel. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.

Nehemiah 9:13 - "Then You came down on Mount Sinai and spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, and laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses." *Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses. Period.

CONTINUED..
I trust the teachings of Jesus and sad how many professed Christians feel they do not apply to them when we are told He is our example to follow, He is the door, He is the way they believe in Jesus but not His teachings.. I guess we will see how that all works out. Take care and God bless.
 
Dec 13, 2023
902
146
43
Now read the next paragraph after Romans 8:8.

Romans 8:9-10
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

In Christ the flesh is dead already, condemned.

Sin has destroyed our flesh, we are dead in Christ, so that we will rise again.

We have the Spirit of the Christ and that is our righteousness, that is our life.

See how this is Christ's work for us and Christ's work in us, this is not from us.

Avoid blowing your own legal trumpet.

Never boast in anything but Jesus Christ.
Thanks for sharing, great verses, but you seem to be implying that it deletes verses 7 and 8. I do not believe that scripture deletes scripture.

If we are in Christ we need to die of self 1 Corinthians 15:31 (remove selfishness and sin) and be reborn in Him. We can't take our old ways and hang on to sin and still be in Christ. He will work with us to overcome John 14:15-18 , but if we cover our sins and do not forsake them, we will not prosper Proverbs 28:13 by going to Jesus for forgiveness and sanctification and to receive His mercy and grace. The Ten Commandments just show us our sins Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 , but the carnal mind can't see that, nor are they subject to it and that's a dangerous place to be. Romans 8:7-8
 
Dec 13, 2023
902
146
43
What happens to a person when they get saved?
I believe we can be in a saved state, but are not truly saved until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Its possible we can fall away after being in a saved state, but can come back in the fold (if we repent, change directions) . Hebrews talks about this and are many examples in scriptures of this which should give us all hope. If we fall, we can still come back as long as probation hasn't closed. Rev 22:11 As stated previously, the sin that is unforgivable is the sin against the Spirit Matthew 12:30-32 when we stop hearing that voice calling us out of rebellion to God Hebrews 3:7-8.

At the end we will be in two groups, the lost and the saved. When Jesus comes the saved will meet Him in the air (His feet do not touch the ground) This is really important because we are told at the end the devil as an angel of light will impersonate God and His second coming and will deceive millions if not billions, but He cannot reenact the true Second Coming of Jesus Christ where all eyes will see Him and the saints meet Him in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Revelation 1:7 and the saints will forever be with Him and He promises heaven will be more than we can comprehend, and no one will be unhappy, he will wipe away all of our tears (as many loved ones won't make it) but sin and sinners will be no more (dead) and it will be a life in harmony with God. Not everyone will be happy in heaven and His penalty is more out of love than anything else. Lucifer wasn't happy and didn't want to submit to God's will, God does not change, and loves us so much He wants us happy, even if that means death.
 
Dec 13, 2023
902
146
43

I never said it was the only law being referred to- its the major theme, but people typically add the law they want instead of allowing the scripture to interpret itself, which in the long run won't do any of us any favors as we need to seek the Truth of God's Word, which is how we are sanctified. John 17:17


Galatians 2:3
Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.
Galatians 2:7
But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
Galatians 2:8
(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),
Galatians 2:9
and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
Galatians 2:12
for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
Galatians 5:2
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.
Galatians 6:12
As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Galatians 6:13
For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
Galatians 6:15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,821
1,196
113
I never said it was the only law being referred to but its the major theme, but people typically add the law they want instead of allowing the scripture to interpret itself


Galatians 2:3
Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.
Galatians 2:7
But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
Galatians 2:8
(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),
Galatians 2:9
and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
Galatians 2:12
for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
Galatians 5:2
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.
Galatians 6:12
As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Galatians 6:13
For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
Galatians 6:15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
i think you've missed the point of the letter.
 
Dec 13, 2023
902
146
43
i think you've missed the point of the letter.
I have studied it many times, please share what you think I've missed. Circumcision is mentioned more in Galatians than any other chapter, it was a large part because many of the Jews were trying to make Gentile Christians keep circumcision to be saved as shown in the scriptures in context and the apostles were teaching that was not a requirement for salvation, is there more to Galatians, of course, but it is a major theme.

Paul says in another letter this:

1 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

While we are not saved by any law keeping, keeping God's law is a fruit of ones faith in Him, to trust Him at His Word and trust He knows what's best for us.