Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
God justifies the ungodly by the death of Christ.
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you are again still engaging in erroneous fallacy.

Here is your claim, brightfame52:


brightfame52 said:
He is Justified before he is made a holy believer, but while ungodly, and dead in sin Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Click to expand...


to which I responded in Post 4276.


Instead of responding to Post 4276, you have engaged in what is called "moving the goalpost" ... which is fallacy.

Moving the goalpost:​
​
Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt. The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the result is changed, too​
​

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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Kroogz

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reneweddaybyday said:
you are again still engaging in erroneous fallacy.

Here is your claim, brightfame52:






to which I responded in Post 4276.


Instead of responding to Post 4276, you have engaged in what is called "moving the goalpost" ... which is fallacy.

Moving the goalpost:​
​
Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt. The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the result is changed, too​
​

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.
Click to expand...
Wow. Great stuff you are revealing on this forum. God bless you.
 
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brightfame52

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Those who Christ shed His Blood for are Justified by the simple fact, His shed blood was for the remission of their sins Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

In other words remission of sins equals Justification. 35
 
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
why do you stop at verse 2, brightfame52? why do you rip verses from the context in which the Author of Scripture has placed them? do you not want to know what the Author wants you to know???

Psalm 32:

1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.

4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.


According to verses 3-4 ... when David "kept silence" (did not acknowledge his sin before God), his sin bothered him to the core of his being. However, read verse 5:


5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.

7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.

When David acknowledged his sin and confessed to God, then his sin was forgiven ... then David considered God his hiding place where David was preserved from trouble.





the whole point of Romans 4:2-8 is that faith is not works.

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Please note that when David wrote Psalm 32, he clearly indicated his sins were forgiven after he acknowledged his sin, confessed his sin to God. Then his sins were forgiven:

Psalm 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.


clearly, according to Romans 4:5 faith ≠ works.

Your problem is that you erroneously believe faith is works and God plainly tells us faith is not works. Believe God and let go of your erroneous dogma.
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Those whom Christ died for, no matter what, they dont have sin imputed to them, they are Justified from all sin and accounted righteous.
 
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
you are again still engaging in erroneous fallacy.

Here is your claim, brightfame52:






to which I responded in Post 4276.


Instead of responding to Post 4276, you have engaged in what is called "moving the goalpost" ... which is fallacy.

Moving the goalpost:​
​
Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt. The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the result is changed, too​
​

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.
Click to expand...
More opposing of the Truth, God justified the ungodly elect by Christs One act of righteousness Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Came upon means resulted in Justification of life

So then as through one trespass [Adam’s sin] there resulted condemnation for all men, even so through one act of righteousness[ Christs Obedience] there resulted justification of life to all men. AMP

You dont believe this, thats unbelief
 
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reneweddaybyday

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Mar 23, 2016
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brightfame52 said:
no matter what, they dont have sin imputed to them
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:rolleyes: ... not true, brightfame52 ... what Scripture tells us is that they "dont have" righteousness imputed to them if they do not believe in Him Who raised the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
God justified the ungodly elect by Christs One act of righteousness
Click to expand...
another attempt at "moving the goalpost", brightfame52.

Here is your claim, brightfame52:


brightfame52 said:
He is Justified before he is made a holy believer, but while ungodly, and dead in sin Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Click to expand...


to which I responded in Post 4276.


Moving the goalpost:​
​
Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt. The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the result is changed, too​



In addition to moving the goalpost, your "ungodly elect" is a figment of your imagination click
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
:rolleyes: ... not true, brightfame52 ... what Scripture tells us is that they "dont have" righteousness imputed to them if they do not believe in Him Who raised the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
.
Click to expand...
Again they dont have sin imputed to them. Thats the blessing of Reconciliation/Justification
 
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
another attempt at "moving the goalpost", brightfame52.

Here is your claim, brightfame52:






to which I responded in Post 4276.


Moving the goalpost:​
​
Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt. The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the result is changed, too​



In addition to moving the goalpost, your "ungodly elect" is a figment of your imagination click
.
Click to expand...
The ungodly elect were Justified before God by Christs one act of righteousness Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Now all people here is restricted the Justified. Thats the elect
 
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brightfame52

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excerpts from a sermon by clay curtis on Justification and its various phases.

Romans 8: 30…and whom he called, them he also justified:

God justified his people in his eternal purpose. When God “blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world” those blessings included this spiritual blessing of justification. This was God’s eternal purpose—his eternal decree in Christ Jesus his Son—this is God,

Isaisah 46:10: Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling…the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

In eternity, when God called Christ to execute his counsel from a far country, God looked only to his Son and our Surety became “the lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13: 8). Therefore, in the fulness of time, the Son of God took flesh and went to the cross and justified his people by his blood. Rom 5:9


  • Acts 4: 28: For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

  • When God called us to believe on Christ, he purged our conscience to know “by him all that believe are justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses” (Acts 13: 39). In other words, he justified us in the court of our conscience through faith in his blood. Rom 5:1

  • Then there is coming a day in judgment when God shall declare us justified before all! We were justified from eternally in the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, justified representatively on the cross by Christ’s blood, justified experimentally in the court of our conscience and shall be justified declaratively before all in the day of judgment.
35
 
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brightfame52

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Christ Justified the ungodly since they were ungodly when He died for them, and the fact that He died for one constitutes that one Justified Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Now lets look back at scripture in Rom 5:6-8

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Yes, that’s when Christ died for His people. When they were yet sinners, without strength, ungodly. When they were enemies of God, at enmity with God, gone out of the way, with mouths full of cursing and bitterness, feet swift to shed blood, with destruction and misery in their ways, having no fear of God before their eyes (Romans 3:10-18). That’s when they were sinners.

“And the way of peace have they not known…” Romans 3:17

But Christ died for them. God justified them.
 
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Click to expand...
Let's read the verses, brightfame52:

Matthew 26:

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

It is in eating the bread and drinking the cup.

Jesus spoke of this truth when He taught in the synagogue at Capernaum:

John 6:

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.


The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam.

Those who eat His flesh and drink His blood will have eternal life.

Those who reject Him will not have eternal life.
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
Again they dont have sin imputed to them.
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:rolleyes: ... there is no need to impute sin because all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ... sin and come short (even your so-called (cough, cough) "elect"):

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

What Scripture tells us is that "they dont have" righteousness imputed to them if they do not believe in Him Who raised the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead.




brightfame52 said:
Thats the blessing of Reconciliation/Justification
Click to expand...
If there is no sin, there is no need for reconciliation.

That is one of the problems with your dogma which you refuse to acknowledge.


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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PaulThomson

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brightfame52 said:
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
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Are these false teachers in 2 Peter 2:1 purchased with Jesus blood. Are they perpetually saved?

2 Peter 2:1 KJV — But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
 
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brightfame52

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Ian Potts writes:

How is a man justified? By the works of the law? No. By the faith of Jesus Christ. Not by faith in Jesus Christ. Our faith doesn’t justify us, it is Christ’s death by which we are justified. Then ‘by the faith of Jesus Christ’. Why? Because His death was an act of that faith.


And what is a result of being justified by Christ’s death, by His faith? The result is that “we have believed in Jesus Christ”. Our belief doesn’t justify us, it is a result of our justification, inwrought by the Spirit. Our belief brings us to an experimental knowledge of our justification before God subjectively in which God declares a sentence of justification in our hearts, but it is God that justified us objectively in the Person of His Son, who shed His blood for His people. And when Christ shed His blood for that people the righteousness of God was unto all of them from that very moment, to be applied by the Spirit upon all of them when they believe, “even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference”. For we are justified, not by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ …​
35
 
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
Let's read the verses, brightfame52:

Matthew 26:

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

It is in eating the bread and drinking the cup.

Jesus spoke of this truth when He taught in the synagogue at Capernaum:

John 6:

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.


The Lord Jesus Christ gave His life for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam.

Those who eat His flesh and drink His blood will have eternal life.

Those who reject Him will not have eternal life.
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Click to expand...
More opposition to the truth
 
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
:rolleyes: ... there is no need to impute sin because all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ... sin and come short (even your so-called (cough, cough) "elect"):

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

What Scripture tells us is that "they dont have" righteousness imputed to them if they do not believe in Him Who raised the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead.





If there is no sin, there is no need for reconciliation.

That is one of the problems with your dogma which you refuse to acknowledge.


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.
Click to expand...
More opposing of the Truth
 
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
Not by faith in Jesus Christ.
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What is written in Scripture:

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

John 9:35-37 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.” Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

John 12:36 Believe in the light [the Lord Jesus Christ] while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.” When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

Acts 19:4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people

Colossians 2:5 For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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