Predestination is misunderstood...

Moses was not. David was not. And,John the Baptist was not.

Do you know what it means to be the Bride of Christ?
Not everyone's resurrection body is going to be like His and His Bride's.

Some will have their everlasting Home on the New Earth.
The Kingdom the Jews were waiting for was to be on the New Earth, not in Heaven.

The Church on the other hand has its citizenship in Heaven!

It does not say that we were simply chosen by Him.
But, specifically, that we were "chosen in Him."

What does "chosen in Him" mean?

Understanding that phrase is the key to understanding predestination.

grace and peace ..............

Christ is in us and we are in Him.

If either one of those conditions is not true for a person they are not saved.

I ask again. Are you saying someone can be saved OUTSIDE the Body of Christ?

Is this gonna become a Predestination vs. Free Will thread? (just wondering)

Our understanding of the scriptures is based upon our interpretation of them. If all of the scriptures do not harmonize with the way we interpret them, then our interpretation of them is incorrect. Your interpretation does not harmonize with all of the scriptures.

yes, God does have foreknowledge, as you have stated, but his foreknowledge was not that he saw some would believe, but by his foreknowledge was that he saw that none would believe (seek) him, no, not one (Psalms 53:2)., That is who he choose his elect from

God, also, at that time predetermined that Christ would adopt them as his children, (Eph 1:5).

God, also, made them accepted (Eph 1:6). It is not their accepting God, but God accepting them

Christ's sacrifice was an offering to God for God's acceptance, and not to mankind for their acceptance.

I might help you to understand a knowledge of the truth if you would pay more attention in harmonizing all of the scriptures.

Imagine an epistle which began "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ whom we have chosen of our own freewill"

es ... not outside or apart from Christ the Lord but outside the church certainly.

We are predestined and chosen to be transformed to the image of God's Son

We are chosen in Christ to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace ... these are crown jewels.

It excludes nobody from being saved.

We are chosen to be a city set upon a hill, to exclude everybody? NO but as a beacon of hope so that the lost and hurt and needy can see us and find succour and refuge.

hurch has got this doctrine wrong Calvin or Arminius. Arminius was so incensed against Calvin that he not only threw out Calvinism he also stupidly threw out Paul. And of course came up with his own monstrosity ... human freewill.

It is 1, 000 times worse than Calvin.

"Free will" is only used in Scripture as a freewill offering...

Whereas it is clearly taught that man is a slave.

And slaves are not free.

Correct!


Correct!


Correct!


WE..... Should exclude NO ONE from hearing the Gospel. That's correct.


Not sure why you even said this. I certainly didn't intimate anything different.


I have certainly never considered myself a Calvinist or Arminist.

While no epistle would say this at the beginning, the very fact that Paul told the Philippian jailer "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" IMPLIES a free will decision to believe. Agrippa said to Paul "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (Acts 26:28). Had he been persuaded, would that not have been a free will decision? What about the 3,000 Jews who were saved on the day of Pentecost? Were they not convicted, and made free will decisions to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?

The whole point of preaching the Gospel is for sinners to RESPOND to the Gospel. And such a response is in fact a free will decision. God will compel none to be saved, and God will exclude none from salvation.

While no epistle would say this at the beginning, the very fact that Paul told the Philippian jailer "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" IMPLIES a free will decision to believe. Agrippa said to Paul "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (Acts 26:28). Had he been persuaded, would that not have been a free will decision? What about the 3,000 Jews who were saved on the day of Pentecost? Were they not convicted, and made free will decisions to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?

The whole point of preaching the Gospel is for sinners to RESPOND to the Gospel. And such a response is in fact a free will decision. God will compel none to be saved, and God will exclude none from salvation.

Whereas it is clearly taught that man is a slave.

What if this is true

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 34-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and what if this is true

“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13-

If we don’t hear what is being said we would never have the choice to be free we would be stuck in slavery but the truth brings repentance and freedom

“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:24-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We have to look at the new free creation and begin to live by him and let the old slave go sin is no longer our master but if we don’t hear what Paul’s explaining we’ll never know

“Likewise reckon ye ( think this way about it ) also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. ( don’t let sin control you )

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: ( stop thinking it’s okay to commit sin )

but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.( start thinking of yourself as a person who’s committed to doing the good and right things )

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Sin doesn’t have the same power over you because you died to the law and your sins were all remitted in Christs death ect

paul is saying these things teaching the church to think this way to believe that you were buried with Christ and are now born anew as a different person on isnt juet a powerless sinner slave but instead who died and is raised up to a brand new life alive to God and dead to the sins we used to live in

its a faith we have to start believing we’re free and can choose or we never will if we always believe “ we just slaves to sin grace excuses it all “ that’s not what Grace does it changes those Albee to sin and makes them free and able but if we remove the repentance and obedience part grace becomes a reason it’s okay to keep sinning because we’re just slaves and can’t be free can’t choose …….The Gospel declares the opposite to believers “ follow Me and be set free for real from slavery to sin “

It does not say that we were simply chosen by Him.
But, specifically, that we were "chosen in Him."

What does "chosen in Him" mean?

Understanding that phrase is the key to understanding predestination.

grace and peace ..............

Good day, Pilgrim .. Hey, you seem to think I am saying believers are slaves to sin. Yikes. I dunno
why you would think that. Once set free from our slavery to sin, we become slaves of Christ .
And what are we set free from? Yes! Freed from the law of sin and death.

John 8:36 plus Romans 8:2

It simply means that God chose Jesus to be the Vessel by how all humans will be saved. It literally has nothing to do with any human being being chosen. Only has to do with that Jesus was "chosen" to be Savior.

Who is the "US" describing in Ephesians 1:4?

First and foremost, God, before He began Creation already "chose" how His creation would be saved. Jesus Christ. Anyone saved would have to be in Him, in Jesus. The only election and chosen in Ephesians is WHO God designated to save. You cannot save me and I cannot save you. So, we are not chosen to do this job. Only Jesus is chosen and if you are saved it's because you are in Him (Jesus).

Imagine an epistle which began "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ whom we have chosen of our own freewill"

... laffable

By God's enabling power of grace at the point of salvation?
We manifested "freed" will.
Not, free will.
Our will was made free to choose.

Grace suppresses our sin nature as to allow our soul to choose, made free of the oppression and dominance of our flesh.
That is why we needed to be saved by "grace."
Without grace, our flesh would have prevented our choosing for Christ..

For without grace controlling our sin nature?
No one would be free to believe with our soul in God, let alone Christ.

Its your flesh that destroys free will.
Keep the flesh in check by God applying grace to suppress it?
Suddenly, your soul will be able to choose sans the dominance of the sin nature in our flesh.

grace and peace .............

personaly speaking by the looks of things youve saved yourself