Predestination is misunderstood...

And, I responded to this...


That is what you said...

Where does the Bible ever mention "FREED WILL". Biblically, free will is some desire that is not compelled. In the Old Testament free will offerings were invited by God, and believers who wanted to offer them without compulsion, could freely offer them. Free will IS mentioned in the Bible. So, where is your invented term "freed will" to be found in scripture? Nowhere. You either invented it yourself, or are parroting some man who invented it.

If a certain slave wants/wills to be free, what can anyone do to stop the slave from wanting/willing to be free. How is the slaves will/want/desire in any way constrained or bound?

What does "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him," have to do with slaves being able to exercise free will and deciding to want to "obey in everything those who are [their] earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. 23 Whatever [they] do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men" ?

What does "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him," have to do with non-Christian slaves being able to exercise free will and deciding to want to "obey in everything those who are [their] earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart" ?

I said -

PaulThomson said:
Slaves exercise free will as much as anyone else. Otherwise why would Paul tell the Colossian slaves -

"Col.3:22 Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality."

You shot off in some random direction to some Calvinist wrest-text that has no relevance to my post at all.

Transformed into the "Bride of Christ!" Bone of his bone. Flesh of his glorious flesh!

What does 1 Peter 1:1-2 say?

1. Peter (Petros), an apostle of Jesus Christ (apostolos IEsou Christou) to a dispersion's chosen exiles (eklektois parepidEmois diasporas) of Pontus, Galatia, Kappadokia, Asia and Bithynia,

2. according to Father God's foreknowledge (kata prognOsin theou patros), in/by sanctification of spirit (en hagiasmOi pneumatos) for obedience (eis hupakoEn) and [for] Jesus Christ's blood' sprinkling (rhantismon haimatos IEsou Christou).

What was foreknown? "A diaspora's chosen exiles of Pontus, Galatia. Kappodokia, Asia and Bithynia" was foreknown.
When was it foreknown? It was foreknown when it was prophesied by God to be in His purpose for the world. Peter says this later in the same letter citing a prophecy from Hosea 1:10; and Paul cites this same scripture as referring to converts from all nations Rom. 9:25-26


So, nothing in this context says these individual converts were foreknown by their future names from before creation. We can only infer from the context that there had been predicted by prophets "a diaspora's chosen exiles" coming to God some time in the future, and this was known before Peter wrote here to those chosen exiles.

What we also learn from this same letter is that Jesus was "foreknown" before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:20 He [Christ] was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you, who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

We also learn from the same letter that Peter tells the diaspora's elect exiles that Christ is honoured and unashamed and elect and those who trust in Him will be honoured and unashamed -

2:4 "Come to Him, a Living Stone rejected in men's sight but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5For it stands in Scripture,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a corner stone chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame. 7 So the honour is for you who believe, but for those who not believe,
"The Stone that the builders rejected has become the Cornerstone,"
8 and,
"A Stone of stumbling and a Rock of offence."
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined/placed/positioned (etethEsan: aorist passive or middle indicative) to do.

The text does not say who it was who positioned those who reject God's chosen Cornerstone to disbelieve the word. It could be God. It could be themselves. If God, it could mean that at the appropriate time God manoeuvred habitually wicked men who disbelieve the word into positions of leadership, so that the response of those rulers would the venting their wickedness on the Good Shepherd who was offering Himself as their replacement leader. If themselves, they could have positioned themselves to disbelieve by habitually choosing evil and ignoring their consciences.

And to unashamed and honoured he adds that the diaspora's elect exiles are chosen/elect -

9 "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Hm who called us out of darkness into His marvellous light . 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. 11 Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles...."

So Peter's audience were, "a diaspora's elect exiles within the range of the listed regions, according to Father God's foreknowledge"; this diaspora's elect exiles known/expected possibly since the prophecy of Hosea 1:10, or possibly known since the prophecies to Abraham, or possibly from the beginning of creation.

They were elect exiles in/by sanctification of spirit [in/by sanctification of spirit (en hagiasmOi pneumatos) for obedience (eis hupakoEn)].This does not say by the sanctification of God's Spirit". It says in/by sanctification of spirit. I could mean that the elect exiles are elect in the sanctification of their own spirit to obey God, setting themselves apart for obedience to God; or in sanctification by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit setting them apart by baptising them into Christ that they should owe Christ obedience. The text is not clear on whose spirit id in mind. maybe it is intentionally ambiguous and is a double entendre, both being meant and true.

And they were elect exiles in/by sanctification of spirit for sprinkling with the blood of Christ [and [for] Jesus Christ's blood' sprinkling (rhantismon haimatos IEsou Christou)]. The accusative case of sprinkling shows that the preposition governing sprinkling is eis and not en. That is, they are not elect exiles in/by the sprinkling with Christ's blood, but by sanctification of spirit into Christ's blood's sprinkling.
It could mean that they are set apart for Christ's blood's sprinkling by the Holy Spirit, which would indicate they are chosen by the Holy Spirit, either arbitrarily or because of repentance and faith, and then sprinkled ; or that they set themselves apart in their own spirit, through repentance and faith, in order to receive the sprinkling of Christ's blood.

This analysis of the text attempts to break down the Greek into it's possible senses and so present a range of the Greek texts possible meanings. Which of those is the best fit to the entire canon, readers will need to decide for themselves.

Are you referencing Romans 1:21. The word there is gnontes from ginOskO, and means to know. But maybe you are referencing some other text? It is not epiginOskO. I don't think EpiginOskO means to make someone know something.

They were written in that Lamb's book before the world began ... a common mistake

The Lord orders the steps of the righteous.

He predestined the how and wherefore you would hear and believe the good news.

God has made Himself known to "all humans." All humans have been elected to be members of Heaven. Jesus was how all people can become saved. Only a handful have "Believed."

Foreknowledge.

yes this is the sum result of Arminianism ... just a few shrivelled souls will be saved.

I think a number which is impossible to count will be saved, God's house has may mansions and it will be PACKED, and still the angels will cry "there is room for more" and God will say "go out to the hedges and highways and COMPEL them to come, good or bad"

MANY will come.

If it depends upon human freewill or human decision then yes it will be just a straggly few sheep.

Who ever said the goats will outnumber the sheep? and since the sheep are not, cannot possibly be the church [and yet receive an inheritance] that means the greater part of humankind will be SAVED.

Away with gloomy Arminius, Away with gloomy Calvin, Away with gloomy Catholics.

Everywhere in the Bible it claims "this day I choose to serve God." That is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit being revealed throughout scripture. Nowhere does the Bible say people does not have a choice in the matter. How is there even a doctrine of "no choice" when it does not exist in the Holy Bible? I have never read I am saved because God made me saved without a choice in the matter. But here you are preaching one that cannot be found. And you know why you cannot find it in the Bible? Because the Bible is about God loving people and people loving God. Those who love God "choose Him after He's made Himself known to them."

Christ died for only those that his Father gave him, and he will not lose any of them.(John 6:38-39) ( John 18:9)

I haven't read your explanation of 1 Cor 2:14, because it says the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, neither can he know them.

God's foreknowledge was that he saw that no one did seek him, no, not one.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God [which He has laid] stands [sure and unshaken despite attacks], bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord stand apart from wickedness and withdraw from wrongdoing." [Num_16:5; Isa_26:13]

the foundation. Psa_11:3; Psa_82:5, Pro_10:25, Isa_14:32; *Isa_28:16, Mat_7:25; *Mat_16:16; *Mat_16:18, Luk_6:48, *1Co_3:10; *1Co_3:11, Eph_2:20, 1Ti_3:15; 1Ti_6:19, Heb_11:10, 1Pe_2:5, Rev_21:14.
standeth. Psa_46:5, Mat_24:24, Mar_13:22, +*Rom_8:31-35; Rom_9:11, *Heb_6:18; *Heb_6:19, *1Jn_2:19.
sure. or, steady. or, firm. Gr. stereos [(S# G4731), stiff, that is, solid, stable (literally or figuratively) [Strong]: Rendered (1) strong: Heb_2:12; Heb_2:14, (2) sure: 2Ti_2:19, (3) stedfast: 1Pe_5:9]. +*Psa_19:7; Psa_112:6; Psa_125:1-2, Act_16:5, Col_2:5, Heb_12:28, +*2Pe_1:10.
having this seal. Exo_28:11, Est_3:12; **Est_8:8, Son_8:6, +*Eze_9:4; +*Eze_9:6, Hag_2:23, Zec_3:9; Zec_4:7-9, Mat_27:66, Mar_12:16, *Rom_4:11; Rom_8:16, 1Co_9:2, 2Co_1:22, *Eph_1:13; +*Eph_4:30, Rev_7:2-3.
The Lord knoweth. Gr. ginōskō (S# G1097, Joh_8:55 note). FS96A1, +Mat_5:29. FS121C2A2, +Gen_39:6. i.e. loves and cares for. +*Gen_18:19, Exo_33:12; Exo_33:17, Num_3:40; **Num_16:5 <rp. =Ezr_2:62; =Ezr_2:63, *Job_23:10; Job_31:6, +*Psa_1:6; *Psa_4:3; Psa_31:7; *Psa_37:18; *Psa_37:28; +**Psa_40:17; *Psa_101:4, +*Jer_1:5, **Nah_1:7, **Mat_7:23, Mar_14:15, %Luk_13:27, +Joh_2:25; Joh_6:64; **Joh_10:14; **Joh_10:27-30; Joh_13:18, +*Rom_8:28; +*Rom_8:29; +*Rom_11:2, +1Co_8:3, Gal_4:9, Rev_2:2; Rev_17:8.
them that are his. 2Ti_2:10, Ezr_1:11, Isa_43:1, Jer_24:5, Mat_24:24; %*Mat_25:12, Luk_8:13, *Joh_6:37; *Joh_6:39; *Joh_10:3, 1Co_6:19-20, 1Th_5:9.
Let every one that nameth. Num_6:27, Psa_130:4, Isa_26:13; Isa_63:19; Isa_65:15, Amo_6:10, +*Mat_28:19, Joh_16:24, Act_9:14; Act_11:26; Act_15:17, Rom_2:24; Rom_15:9; Rom_15:20, 1Co_1:2, Eph_3:15, Rev_2:13; Rev_3:8; Rev_22:4.
the name of Christ. Psa_8:1; Psa_8:9, *2Th_1:12.
depart from iniquity. **Num_16:26 <rp. Job_22:23; Job_28:28, Psa_6:8; *Psa_34:14; +*Psa_37:27; Psa_85:8; *Psa_97:10, *Pro_3:7; Pro_8:13; *Pro_13:19, Isa_52:11, Rom_7:15; *Rom_12:9, 2Co_6:17; **2Co_7:1, *Gal_5:24, Eph_1:4; Eph_4:17-22; Eph_5:1-11, +*Col_3:5-8, 2Th_2:13, *Tit_2:11-14, *1Pe_1:13-19, **2Pe_1:4-10; **2Pe_3:14, *1Jn_3:7-10.

May Christ be glorified
Shalom
J.

Foreknowledge
A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.
B. Noun.
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of divine "foreknowledge," Act_2:23; 1Pe_1:2. "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Act_15:18. God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Gal_1:16; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11. The divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cf. FORESHEW.

ginóskó G1097 [to know, understand]
gnósis G1108 [knowledge]
epiginóskó G1921 [to know, recognize]
epignósis G1922 [knowledge, recognition]
kataginóskó G2607 [to condemn]
akatagnóstos G176 [not condemned]
proginóskó G4267 [to, foreknow]
prognósis G4268 [foreknowledge]
syngnome [forbearance]
gnómé G1106 [intention, opinion]
gnórizó G1107 [to make known, to know]
gnóstos G1110 [known]

ginosko, gnosis, epiginosko, epignosis
A. The Greek Usage. The ordinary use is for intelligent comprehension ("to perceive," "to understand," "to know"), at first with a stress on the act. As distinct from aisthanesthai, ginosko emphasizes understanding rather than sensory perception, and as distinct from dokein it is a perception of things as they are, not an opinion about them. Related to episteme, gnosis needs an objective genitive and suggests the act of knowing rather than knowledge as such. This act embraces every organ and mode of knowledge, e.g., by seeing, hearing, investigation, or experience, and of people as well as things. Supremely, however, knowledge implies verification by the eye; hence the dominant concept is that of knowledge by objective observation. This is related to the Greek view of reality. Reality consist of forms and figures, or of the elements and principles that shape them. The truly real is timeless reality that is constant in every change. Those who see or know this possess and control it. Hence knowledge of what really is constitutes the supreme possibility in life. Those who know participate in the eternal. They are thus capable, as Plato thinks, of right political action, or may achieve the ideal, as Aristotle thinks, of disinterested scientific contemplation.

B. The Gnostic Usage. Hellenistic and Gnostic usage follows the classical development yet also draws on the belief of the mysteries that a secret knowledge may be mediated that leads to salvation. In this area gnosis a. means knowledge as such as well as the act, with a primary stress on knowledge of God. God is the self-evident object of gnosis and distinct from all becoming, so that he can be known only by turning away from the world, i.e., by a special kind of knowledge. This knowledge, then, is not b. an activity of the nous but a charisma, i.e., illumination by ecstatic or mystical vision. This knowledge cannot be possessed, although knowledge achieved on the way to it may. In true Gnosticism, however, this preparatory knowledge is an esoteric knowledge acquired by initiatory training, so that the prerequisite is the hearing of faith rather than scientific inquiry. The knowledge that is thus imparted by sacred tradition guarantees the ascent of the soul after death. Its content embraces cosmology and anthropology but always with a view to the knowledge of the self that leads to salvation, i.e., of the self as a soul that comes from the world of light, is entangled in matter, and must return to its true home by turning aside from the physical world. Gnostic knowledge carries with it c. investiture with the divine nature. It is a divine power that drives out death, working almost like a magical fluid identical with or life, and constituting a mysterious quality of the soul which is made secure by an ascetic mode of life.




Shalom
J.

You are correct. We lost our ability to believe with the fall of Adam. We will not regain the ability until we are given a new heart.

The Holy Spirit baptises you into water