Predestination is misunderstood...

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Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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You are moving the goalposts.
I was responding to -

Genez said:
"I'm talking about "freed" will. You keep talking about free will.

There is no such thing as naturally having free will in relation to knowing God."

No. They knew God from birth because of their free will good choice. But at some point they made the evil choice to suppress that truth. Then they might freely change their mind many times back and forth before becoming stubborn in their rejection of the truth. So, your claim that "there is no such thing as naturally having free will in relation to knowing God" is wrong.
And, I responded to this...

Apostle Paul disagrees. Romans 1:
1 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.​

That is what you said...
 

PaulThomson

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And, I responded to this...

Apostle Paul disagrees. Romans 1:​
1 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.​
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.​

That is what you said...
Where does the Bible ever mention "FREED WILL". Biblically, free will is some desire that is not compelled. In the Old Testament free will offerings were invited by God, and believers who wanted to offer them without compulsion, could freely offer them. Free will IS mentioned in the Bible. So, where is your invented term "freed will" to be found in scripture? Nowhere. You either invented it yourself, or are parroting some man who invented it.
 

PaulThomson

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"Free will" is only used in Scripture as a freewill offering...

Whereas it is clearly taught that man is a slave.

And slaves are not free.
If a certain slave wants/wills to be free, what can anyone do to stop the slave from wanting/willing to be free. How is the slaves will/want/desire in any way constrained or bound?
 

PaulThomson

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Looks like you missed the point also, and I already know you disagree about this, although having the ability to make choices does not nullify the fact that the will is constrained by many factors. In fact,
Scripture teaches, in the words of Jesus:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."


Jesus’ words in John 6:65
:)
What does "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him," have to do with slaves being able to exercise free will and deciding to want to "obey in everything those who are [their] earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. 23 Whatever [they] do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men" ?

What does "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him," have to do with non-Christian slaves being able to exercise free will and deciding to want to "obey in everything those who are [their] earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart" ?

I said -

PaulThomson said:
Slaves exercise free will as much as anyone else. Otherwise why would Paul tell the Colossian slaves -

"Col.3:22 Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality."

You shot off in some random direction to some Calvinist wrest-text that has no relevance to my post at all.
 

Genez

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That statement needs to be clarified. And this verse makes it clear: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:2)

So the ones who were chosen in Christ are the ones whom God foreknew as being believers. These believers would be (1) washed in the blood of the Lamb, (2) sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and (3) made obedient to God and Christ. They would be elected and predestined to be transformed into the the likeness of Christ.
Transformed into the "Bride of Christ!" Bone of his bone. Flesh of his glorious flesh!
 

PaulThomson

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That statement needs to be clarified. And this verse makes it clear: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:2)

So the ones who were chosen in Christ are the ones whom God foreknew as being believers. These believers would be (1) washed in the blood of the Lamb, (2) sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and (3) made obedient to God and Christ. They would be elected and predestined to be transformed into the the likeness of Christ.
What does 1 Peter 1:1-2 say?

1. Peter (Petros), an apostle of Jesus Christ (apostolos IEsou Christou) to a dispersion's chosen exiles (eklektois parepidEmois diasporas) of Pontus, Galatia, Kappadokia, Asia and Bithynia,

2. according to Father God's foreknowledge (kata prognOsin theou patros), in/by sanctification of spirit (en hagiasmOi pneumatos) for obedience (eis hupakoEn) and [for] Jesus Christ's blood' sprinkling (rhantismon haimatos IEsou Christou).

What was foreknown? "A diaspora's chosen exiles of Pontus, Galatia. Kappodokia, Asia and Bithynia" was foreknown.
When was it foreknown? It was foreknown when it was prophesied by God to be in His purpose for the world. Peter says this later in the same letter citing a prophecy from Hosea 1:10; and Paul cites this same scripture as referring to converts from all nations Rom. 9:25-26


So, nothing in this context says these individual converts were foreknown by their future names from before creation. We can only infer from the context that there had been predicted by prophets "a diaspora's chosen exiles" coming to God some time in the future, and this was known before Peter wrote here to those chosen exiles.

What we also learn from this same letter is that Jesus was "foreknown" before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:20 He [Christ] was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you, who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

We also learn from the same letter that Peter tells the diaspora's elect exiles that Christ is honoured and unashamed and elect and those who trust in Him will be honoured and unashamed -

2:4 "Come to Him, a Living Stone rejected in men's sight but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5For it stands in Scripture,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a corner stone chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame. 7 So the honour is for you who believe, but for those who not believe,
"The Stone that the builders rejected has become the Cornerstone,"
8 and,
"A Stone of stumbling and a Rock of offence."
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined/placed/positioned (etethEsan: aorist passive or middle indicative) to do.

The text does not say who it was who positioned those who reject God's chosen Cornerstone to disbelieve the word. It could be God. It could be themselves. If God, it could mean that at the appropriate time God manoeuvred habitually wicked men who disbelieve the word into positions of leadership, so that the response of those rulers would the venting their wickedness on the Good Shepherd who was offering Himself as their replacement leader. If themselves, they could have positioned themselves to disbelieve by habitually choosing evil and ignoring their consciences.

And to unashamed and honoured he adds that the diaspora's elect exiles are chosen/elect -

9 "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Hm who called us out of darkness into His marvellous light . 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. 11 Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles...."

So Peter's audience were, "a diaspora's elect exiles within the range of the listed regions, according to Father God's foreknowledge"; this diaspora's elect exiles known/expected possibly since the prophecy of Hosea 1:10, or possibly known since the prophecies to Abraham, or possibly from the beginning of creation.

They were elect exiles in/by sanctification of spirit [in/by sanctification of spirit (en hagiasmOi pneumatos) for obedience (eis hupakoEn)].This does not say by the sanctification of God's Spirit". It says in/by sanctification of spirit. I could mean that the elect exiles are elect in the sanctification of their own spirit to obey God, setting themselves apart for obedience to God; or in sanctification by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit setting them apart by baptising them into Christ that they should owe Christ obedience. The text is not clear on whose spirit id in mind. maybe it is intentionally ambiguous and is a double entendre, both being meant and true.

And they were elect exiles in/by sanctification of spirit for sprinkling with the blood of Christ [and [for] Jesus Christ's blood' sprinkling (rhantismon haimatos IEsou Christou)]. The accusative case of sprinkling shows that the preposition governing sprinkling is eis and not en. That is, they are not elect exiles in/by the sprinkling with Christ's blood, but by sanctification of spirit into Christ's blood's sprinkling.
It could mean that they are set apart for Christ's blood's sprinkling by the Holy Spirit, which would indicate they are chosen by the Holy Spirit, either arbitrarily or because of repentance and faith, and then sprinkled ; or that they set themselves apart in their own spirit, through repentance and faith, in order to receive the sprinkling of Christ's blood.

This analysis of the text attempts to break down the Greek into it's possible senses and so present a range of the Greek texts possible meanings. Which of those is the best fit to the entire canon, readers will need to decide for themselves.
 

PaulThomson

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Here you go... A mini Greek lesson that would be helpful to expand our understanding......

For although they knew God..."

The Greek means that God made them to be knowing God must be real... "Epignosis"

But? Because of their preferring evil by choice? They suppressed what God had made them to know and resorted to lies to suppress the truth that was made known to them.

They literally defy God!!!

That is why God punishes them. Punishes them by handing the males over to uncontrollable homosexuality....
It says its "punishment!"
Are you referencing Romans 1:21. The word there is gnontes from ginOskO, and means to know. But maybe you are referencing some other text? It is not epiginOskO. I don't think EpiginOskO means to make someone know something.
 

Evmur

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"God put you in the womb my brother, He knitted you together, He knows the number of hairs upon your head" - We all agree with that.

"He knew every step you would ever take". - There is nothing in scripture that says that. or clearly implies that.

"How could He possibly predestine an unknown person or people?" - Easily. He predestines the Son to incarnate, and defeat sin and death as a man, and he determines that all those who put their trust in and pledge allegiance to the Son are forgiven and made joint heirs with the Son of all that the Son has inherited as a faithful man.
The Lord orders the steps of the righteous.

He predestined the how and wherefore you would hear and believe the good news.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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we were chosen to be saved at the right time, we were in Christ but consigned to the headship of Adam along with the rest of mankind. To exclude everyone else? NO but that God might have mercy upon all.

Everything with God starts with grace and mercy ... it was Calvin who put the gloomy interpretation upon it.

But then so did Arminius

Why did he throw out predestination and election which he did in effect?

Because he thought exactly the same as Calvin, he came to exactly the same conclusion that "if God has predestined and chosen some He must of necessity have passed over all others" Arminius thought that too, it's human logic, he couldn't see around it. SO he in effect demotes the doctrines of predestination and election and promotes far above the doctrines human freewill and choice [of course along with God's grace] as the means by which we are saved.

There is not a scrap of scripture to support such an idea. It is deadly poison. WHY? because it raises our human will [which is by no means free] to the level of God's will. Our will becomes sovereign, without our exercising our will [which is not free but in bondage] we cannot be saved. It makes us our own co-redeemers ... bah.

I say God saves who He wants to whether they want it or not. ... He makes them want it. He subdues the human will which is in rebellion to Him.

We are born again NOT by the will of man, NOR by the will of the flesh BUT by the will of God.
God has made Himself known to "all humans." All humans have been elected to be members of Heaven. Jesus was how all people can become saved. Only a handful have "Believed."
 

Evmur

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God has made Himself known to "all humans." All humans have been elected to be members of Heaven. Jesus was how all people can become saved. Only a handful have "Believed."
yes this is the sum result of Arminianism ... just a few shrivelled souls will be saved.

I think a number which is impossible to count will be saved, God's house has may mansions and it will be PACKED, and still the angels will cry "there is room for more" and God will say "go out to the hedges and highways and COMPEL them to come, good or bad"

MANY will come.

If it depends upon human freewill or human decision then yes it will be just a straggly few sheep.

Who ever said the goats will outnumber the sheep? and since the sheep are not, cannot possibly be the church [and yet receive an inheritance] that means the greater part of humankind will be SAVED.

Away with gloomy Arminius, Away with gloomy Calvin, Away with gloomy Catholics.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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yes this is the sum result of Arminianism ... just a few shrivelled souls will be saved.

I think a number which is impossible to count will be saved, God's house has may mansions and it will be PACKED, and still the angels will cry "there is room for more" and God will say "go out to the hedges and highways and COMPEL them to come, good or bad"

MANY will come.

If it depends upon human freewill or human decision then yes it will be just a straggly few sheep.

Who ever said the goats will outnumber the sheep? and since the sheep are not, cannot possibly be the church [and yet receive an inheritance] that means the greater part of humankind will be SAVED.

Away with gloomy Arminius, Away with gloomy Calvin, Away with gloomy Catholics.
Everywhere in the Bible it claims "this day I choose to serve God." That is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit being revealed throughout scripture. Nowhere does the Bible say people does not have a choice in the matter. How is there even a doctrine of "no choice" when it does not exist in the Holy Bible? I have never read I am saved because God made me saved without a choice in the matter. But here you are preaching one that cannot be found. And you know why you cannot find it in the Bible? Because the Bible is about God loving people and people loving God. Those who love God "choose Him after He's made Himself known to them."
 

ForestGreenCook

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Names of the living are written in the book of life. Names can be blotted out of the book of life when one denies the Lord. During the tribulation, as in Revelation 17, names can be blotted out for worshipping the beast and taking his mark. The book of life was begun from the foundation of the world and continues until the end of Revelation 20.
Christ died for only those that his Father gave him, and he will not lose any of them.(John 6:38-39) ( John 18:9)
 

ForestGreenCook

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Everywhere in the Bible it claims "this day I choose to serve God." That is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit being revealed throughout scripture. Nowhere does the Bible say people does not have a choice in the matter. How is there even a doctrine of "no choice" when it does not exist in the Holy Bible? I have never read I am saved because God made me saved without a choice in the matter. But here you are preaching one that cannot be found. And you know why you cannot find it in the Bible? Because the Bible is about God loving people and people loving God. Those who love God "choose Him after He's made Himself known to them."

I haven't read your explanation of 1 Cor 2:14, because it says the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, neither can he know them.
 

Johann

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Away with gloomy Arminius, Away with gloomy Calvin, Away with gloomy Catholics.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God [which He has laid] stands [sure and unshaken despite attacks], bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord stand apart from wickedness and withdraw from wrongdoing." [Num_16:5; Isa_26:13]

the foundation. Psa_11:3; Psa_82:5, Pro_10:25, Isa_14:32; *Isa_28:16, Mat_7:25; *Mat_16:16; *Mat_16:18, Luk_6:48, *1Co_3:10; *1Co_3:11, Eph_2:20, 1Ti_3:15; 1Ti_6:19, Heb_11:10, 1Pe_2:5, Rev_21:14.
standeth. Psa_46:5, Mat_24:24, Mar_13:22, +*Rom_8:31-35; Rom_9:11, *Heb_6:18; *Heb_6:19, *1Jn_2:19.
sure. or, steady. or, firm. Gr. stereos [(S# G4731), stiff, that is, solid, stable (literally or figuratively) [Strong]: Rendered (1) strong: Heb_2:12; Heb_2:14, (2) sure: 2Ti_2:19, (3) stedfast: 1Pe_5:9]. +*Psa_19:7; Psa_112:6; Psa_125:1-2, Act_16:5, Col_2:5, Heb_12:28, +*2Pe_1:10.
having this seal. Exo_28:11, Est_3:12; **Est_8:8, Son_8:6, +*Eze_9:4; +*Eze_9:6, Hag_2:23, Zec_3:9; Zec_4:7-9, Mat_27:66, Mar_12:16, *Rom_4:11; Rom_8:16, 1Co_9:2, 2Co_1:22, *Eph_1:13; +*Eph_4:30, Rev_7:2-3.
The Lord knoweth. Gr. ginōskō (S# G1097, Joh_8:55 note). FS96A1, +Mat_5:29. FS121C2A2, +Gen_39:6. i.e. loves and cares for. +*Gen_18:19, Exo_33:12; Exo_33:17, Num_3:40; **Num_16:5 <rp. =Ezr_2:62; =Ezr_2:63, *Job_23:10; Job_31:6, +*Psa_1:6; *Psa_4:3; Psa_31:7; *Psa_37:18; *Psa_37:28; +**Psa_40:17; *Psa_101:4, +*Jer_1:5, **Nah_1:7, **Mat_7:23, Mar_14:15, %Luk_13:27, +Joh_2:25; Joh_6:64; **Joh_10:14; **Joh_10:27-30; Joh_13:18, +*Rom_8:28; +*Rom_8:29; +*Rom_11:2, +1Co_8:3, Gal_4:9, Rev_2:2; Rev_17:8.
them that are his. 2Ti_2:10, Ezr_1:11, Isa_43:1, Jer_24:5, Mat_24:24; %*Mat_25:12, Luk_8:13, *Joh_6:37; *Joh_6:39; *Joh_10:3, 1Co_6:19-20, 1Th_5:9.
Let every one that nameth. Num_6:27, Psa_130:4, Isa_26:13; Isa_63:19; Isa_65:15, Amo_6:10, +*Mat_28:19, Joh_16:24, Act_9:14; Act_11:26; Act_15:17, Rom_2:24; Rom_15:9; Rom_15:20, 1Co_1:2, Eph_3:15, Rev_2:13; Rev_3:8; Rev_22:4.
the name of Christ. Psa_8:1; Psa_8:9, *2Th_1:12.
depart from iniquity. **Num_16:26 <rp. Job_22:23; Job_28:28, Psa_6:8; *Psa_34:14; +*Psa_37:27; Psa_85:8; *Psa_97:10, *Pro_3:7; Pro_8:13; *Pro_13:19, Isa_52:11, Rom_7:15; *Rom_12:9, 2Co_6:17; **2Co_7:1, *Gal_5:24, Eph_1:4; Eph_4:17-22; Eph_5:1-11, +*Col_3:5-8, 2Th_2:13, *Tit_2:11-14, *1Pe_1:13-19, **2Pe_1:4-10; **2Pe_3:14, *1Jn_3:7-10.

May Christ be glorified
Shalom
J.
 

Johann

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God's foreknowledge was that he saw that no one did seek him, no, not one.
Foreknowledge
A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.
B. Noun.
prognosis (G4268), "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of divine "foreknowledge," Act_2:23; 1Pe_1:2. "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and predictions. See Act_15:18. God's "foreknowledge" involves His electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He "foreknows" the exercise of faith which brings salvation. The apostle Paul stresses especially the actual purposes of God rather than the ground of the purposes, see, e.g., Gal_1:16; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11. The divine counsels will ever be unthwartable. Cf. FORESHEW.

ginóskó G1097 [to know, understand]
gnósis G1108 [knowledge]
epiginóskó G1921 [to know, recognize]
epignósis G1922 [knowledge, recognition]
kataginóskó G2607 [to condemn]
akatagnóstos G176 [not condemned]
proginóskó G4267 [to, foreknow]
prognósis G4268 [foreknowledge]
syngnome [forbearance]
gnómé G1106 [intention, opinion]
gnórizó G1107 [to make known, to know]
gnóstos G1110 [known]

ginosko, gnosis, epiginosko, epignosis
A. The Greek Usage. The ordinary use is for intelligent comprehension ("to perceive," "to understand," "to know"), at first with a stress on the act. As distinct from aisthanesthai, ginosko emphasizes understanding rather than sensory perception, and as distinct from dokein it is a perception of things as they are, not an opinion about them. Related to episteme, gnosis needs an objective genitive and suggests the act of knowing rather than knowledge as such. This act embraces every organ and mode of knowledge, e.g., by seeing, hearing, investigation, or experience, and of people as well as things. Supremely, however, knowledge implies verification by the eye; hence the dominant concept is that of knowledge by objective observation. This is related to the Greek view of reality. Reality consist of forms and figures, or of the elements and principles that shape them. The truly real is timeless reality that is constant in every change. Those who see or know this possess and control it. Hence knowledge of what really is constitutes the supreme possibility in life. Those who know participate in the eternal. They are thus capable, as Plato thinks, of right political action, or may achieve the ideal, as Aristotle thinks, of disinterested scientific contemplation.

B. The Gnostic Usage. Hellenistic and Gnostic usage follows the classical development yet also draws on the belief of the mysteries that a secret knowledge may be mediated that leads to salvation. In this area gnosis a. means knowledge as such as well as the act, with a primary stress on knowledge of God. God is the self-evident object of gnosis and distinct from all becoming, so that he can be known only by turning away from the world, i.e., by a special kind of knowledge. This knowledge, then, is not b. an activity of the nous but a charisma, i.e., illumination by ecstatic or mystical vision. This knowledge cannot be possessed, although knowledge achieved on the way to it may. In true Gnosticism, however, this preparatory knowledge is an esoteric knowledge acquired by initiatory training, so that the prerequisite is the hearing of faith rather than scientific inquiry. The knowledge that is thus imparted by sacred tradition guarantees the ascent of the soul after death. Its content embraces cosmology and anthropology but always with a view to the knowledge of the self that leads to salvation, i.e., of the self as a soul that comes from the world of light, is entangled in matter, and must return to its true home by turning aside from the physical world. Gnostic knowledge carries with it c. investiture with the divine nature. It is a divine power that drives out death, working almost like a magical fluid identical with or life, and constituting a mysterious quality of the soul which is made secure by an ascetic mode of life.




Shalom
J.
 

BillyBob

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Our understanding of the scriptures is based upon our interpretation of them. If all of the scriptures do not harmonize with the way we interpret them, then our interpretation of them is incorrect. Your interpretation does not harmonize with all of the scriptures.

yes, God does have foreknowledge, as you have stated, but his foreknowledge was not that he saw some would believe, but by his foreknowledge was that he saw that none would believe (seek) him, no, not one (Psalms 53:2)., That is who he choose his elect from

God, also, at that time predetermined that Christ would adopt them as his children, (Eph 1:5).

God, also, made them accepted (Eph 1:6). It is not their accepting God, but God accepting them

Christ's sacrifice was an offering to God for God's acceptance, and not to mankind for their acceptance.

I might help you to understand a knowledge of the truth if you would pay more attention in harmonizing all of the scriptures.
You are correct. We lost our ability to believe with the fall of Adam. We will not regain the ability until we are given a new heart.