Why Some Arminians and Calvinists Need to Calm Down

Being internally consistent does not mean it is correct or true, the premise can be wrong as in the case Calvinism starting with the "T"

Sometimes it helps to indicate whether we agreeing or disagree with the post we are responding to, before we add our comments.

So we both disagree with John Calvin.

SomeDisciple said:
Belief doesn't "earn" you anything; but it will get you a gift that you do not deserve and did not and cannot earn. Salvation isn't compensation. If you don't do the believing, no one is going to do it for you.

I actually requested that he be beheaded; but unfortunately crucifixion was the only legal recourse.

Act 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
Act 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
Act 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
Act 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
Act 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Act 13:48 Ἀκούοντα Akouonta|G191|V-PPA-NNP|Hearing [it] δὲ de|G1161|Conj|then, τὰ ta|G3588|Art-NNP|the ἔθνη ethnē|G1484|N-NNP|Gentiles ἔχαιρον echairon|G5463|V-IIA-3P|were rejoicing καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and ἐδόξαζον edoxazon|G1392|V-IIA-3P|glorifying τὸν ton|G3588|Art-AMS|the λόγον logon|G3056|N-AMS|word τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|of the Κυρίου, Kyriou|G2962|N-GMS|Lord, καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and ἐπίστευσαν episteusan|G4100|V-AIA-3P|believed ὅσοι hosoi|G3745|RelPro-NMP|as many as ἦσαν ēsan|G1510|V-IIA-3P|were τεταγμένοι tetagmenoi|G5021|V-RPM/P-NMP|appointed εἰς eis|G1519|Prep|to ζωὴν zōēn|G2222|N-AFS|life αἰώνιον· aiōnion|G166|Adj-AFS|eternal.

Verb - Perfect Participle Middle - Accusative Masculine Singular-appointed

I don't expect you to understand what is graphically portrayed here @PaulThomson-maybe later.

Jesus teaches about faith in several passages in the Bible. In Mark 11:22-25, Jesus says, "Have faith in God. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours"

This passage emphasizes the importance of faith in prayer and the power of believing in God's promises.
In John 11:25-26, Jesus says, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

This passage highlights the connection between faith in Jesus and eternal life.
In John 3:16, Jesus says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

This verse emphasizes the central role of faith in receiving eternal life through Jesus.
In John 12:44-46, Jesus says, "Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me. Whoever sees me sees the one who sent me. I am the light that has come into the world so that everyone who believes in me will not live in the dark"

This passage connects faith in Jesus with faith in God the Father and the light of truth that Jesus brings.

In summary, Jesus teaches that faith is not a product of our unregenerate human natures but a product of new life only He can give. Faith in Jesus is the key to receiving eternal life, experiencing the power of prayer, and understanding the truth about God and ourselves.

Shalom
J.

So how do you know if you are one of the eklektoi-or chosen ones?
J.

Do you believe we are mere "passive" Christians? I am saved-that's it?
J.

Are you calvinist?

let's see if I'm wasting my time-


PERSEVERANCE

The biblical doctrines related to the Christian life are difficult to explain because they are presented in typically eastern, dialectical pairs . These pairs seem contradictory, yet both poles are biblical. Western Christians have tended to choose one truth and ignore or depreciate the opposite truth. Some examples:

1. Is salvation an initial decision to trust Christ or a life-time commitment to discipleship?

2. Is salvation an election by means of grace from a sovereign God or a faith and repentant response on mankind's part to a divine offer?

3. Is salvation, once received, impossible to lose, or is there a need for continual diligence?



The issue of perseverance has been contentious throughout church history. The problem starts with seemingly conflicting passages of the NT:

1. texts on assurance

a. statements of Jesus in John's Gospel (John 6:37; 10:28-29)

b. statements of Paul (Rom. 8:35-39; Eph. 1:13; 2:5,8-9; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 2 Thess. 3:3; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:18)

c. statements of Peter (1 Pet. 1:4-5)

2. texts on the need for perseverance

a. statements of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13)

b. statements of Jesus in John's Gospel (John 8:31; 15:4-10)

c. statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)

d. statements of the author of Hebrews (2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:11)

e. statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7)



Biblical salvation issues from the love, mercy, and grace of a sovereign Triune God. No human can be saved without the initiation of the Spirit (cf. John 6:44,65). Deity comes first and sets the agenda, but demands that humans must respond in faith and repentance, both initially and continually. God works with mankind in a covenant relationship. There are privileges and responsibilities!

Salvation is offered to all humans. Jesus' death dealt with the sin problem of the fallen creation! God has provided a way and wants all those made in His image to respond to His love and provision in Jesus.

If you would like to read more on this subject see

1. Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, Eerdmans, 1981 (pp. 348-365)

2. Howard Marshall, Kept by the Power of God, Bethany Fellowship, 1969

3. Robert Shank, Life in the Son, Westcott, 1961



The Bible addresses two different problems in this area: (1) taking assurance as a license to live fruitless, selfish lives or (2) encouraging those who struggle with ministry and personal sin. The problem is that the wrong groups are taking the wrong message and building theological systems on limited biblical passages. Some Christians desperately need the message of assurance, while others need the stern warnings of perseverance! Which group are you in?

There is a historical theological controversy involving Augustine versus Pelagius and Calvin versus Arminius (semi-Pelagian). The issue involves the question of salvation: if one is truly saved, must he persevere in faith and fruitfulness?

The Calvinists line up behind those biblical texts that assert God's sovereignty and keeping-power (John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:31-39; 1 John 5:13,18; 1 Pet. 1:3-5) and verb tenses like the perfect passive participles of Eph. 2:5,8.

The Arminians line up behind those biblical texts that warn believers to "hold on," "hold out," or "continue" (Matt. 10:22; 24:9-13; Mark 13:13; John 15:4-6; 1 Cor. 15:2; Gal. 6:9; Rev. 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7). I personally do not believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 are applicable, but many Arminians use them as a warning against apostasy. The parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 and Mark 4 addresses the issue of apparent belief, as does John 8:31-59. As Calvinists quote the perfect tense verbs used to describe salvation, the Arminians quote the present tense passages like 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15.

This is a perfect example of how theological systems abuse the proof-texting method of interpretation. Usually a guiding principle or chief text is used to construct a theological grid by which all other texts are viewed. Be careful of grids from any source. They come from western logic, not revelation. The Bible is an eastern book. It presents truth in tension-filled, seemingly paradoxical pairs. Christians are meant to affirm both and live within the tension. The NT presents both the security of the believer and the demand for continuing faith and godliness. Christianity is an initial response of repentance and faith followed by a continuing response of repentance and faith. Salvation is not a product (a ticket to heaven or a fire insurance policy), but a relationship. It is a decision and discipleship. It is described in the NT in all verb tenses:

aorist (completed action), Acts 15:11; Rom. 8:24; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5
perfect (completed action with continuing results), Eph. 2:5,8
present (continuing action), 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15
future (future events or certain events), Rom. 5:8,10; 10:9; 1 Cor. 3:15; Phil. 1:28; 1 Thess. 5:8-9; Heb. 1:14; 9:28

I don't expect you to understand this either.
J.

I do not remember typing that?

I don't expect I want to converse with someone who takes any slight against Calvinism personally and uses ad hominem right from the

get go, at least most people on here wait until they are really upset and frustrated!!

I am a believer in Yeshua HaMashiach--
In Moshiach you also, having heard the message of HaEmes, the Besuras HaGeulah of Yeshu'at Eloheinu which is yours, having also come to emunah, received your chotam (seal) in Moshiach with the Ruach Hakodesh of havtachah (promise),
Eph 1:14 Who is bestowed as an eravon (pledge) of our nachalah (allotted inheritance, TEHILLIM 16:5-6), with a view to the Geulah of Hashem's own possession, to the tehilat kavod (praise of glory) of Him.

the earnest. or, a pledge. Num_13:23, Rom_5:5; *Rom_8:15-17; *Rom_8:23, 2Co_1:22; *2Co_5:1; *2Co_5:4; *2Co_5:5, *Gal_4:6, 1Jn_3:19-20 note. 1Jn_4:13.
our inheritance. Gr. klēronomia (S# G2817). +*Eph_1:11 note, Eph_1:18 g. *Eph_5:5 g. Num_34:2, Mat_21:38 g. Mar_12:7 g. Luk_12:13 g. Luk_20:14 g. +*Act_7:5 g. *+Act_20:32 g. +*Act_26:18, Gal_3:18 g. *Col_3:24 g. Heb_9:15 g. Heb_11:8 g. +*1Pe_1:4 g.
the redemption. *+Eph_1:7, +*Eph_4:30, Lev_25:24, etc. Psa_74:2; Psa_78:54; Psa_111:9, **+Isa_51:11, Jer_32:7-8, *Hos_13:14, Luk_21:28, +*Act_20:28, **Rom_8:23, Col_3:4, *Tit_2:14, *+1Pe_2:9 mg. Rev_12:9-11; Rev_14:4.
purchased possession. Gr. peripoiēsis (S# G4047). Eph_1:11 note. 2Ki_19:34, Isa_37:35, +*Mat_5:5, +*Act_20:28, 1Th_5:9 g (obtain). 2Th_2:14 g (obtaining). Heb_10:39 g (saving). +1Pe_2:9 g (peculiar).
unto the praise. See on Eph_1:6; Eph_1:12, Php_1:11, +*1Pe_2:9.
of his glory. Psa_86:9; Psa_138:5, Isa_43:7; +*Isa_60:21; Isa_63:14, Jer_14:7, Eze_20:14, Dan_9:19, Luk_19:38, Joh_13:31, Rom_1:5; +**Rom_15:7, 2Co_1:20, Gal_1:5, *2Th_1:10, 1Ti_1:11, 1Pe_1:8.

Does it answer your question?
Shalom
J.

You will definitely not find any teaching of Christ which matches this. If it were true God would first regenerate THE WHOLE WORLD, then give them salvation! Which is so absurd that it does not even need any further comment. The delusions of the Calvinists are really something.

Because the whole world is unregenerate, God has designed the Gospel to be the means of generating saving faith (Romans 10 and other passages). Hence Christ's commands to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature. But the Gospel does not go out by itself. Since it is the power of God unto salvation, God the Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to CONVICT and to CONVINCE sinners to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

And that is exactly why we have this passage (Acts 2:36-38): Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What does ""they were pricked in their heart" mean? Some translations say "they were pierced to the heart" and others say "they were cut to the heart". How did that happen? It was the Holy Spirit who brought conviction as well as convinced them about the Gospel truth. Thus they were saved and received the Holy Ghost.

Just asking IF you believe we are mere "passive" Christians-and you see this as ad hominem?

hmm

^^^^^^^

It would be helpful to pay attention to your own words.

So? Does it mean the whole kosmou is presently pricked or cut to the heart-convicted? There's a massive apostasy happening worldwide-wouldn't you agree? Wars-famines and will Panta be saved?

Who said God will "regenerate the whole world?" You just did-diametrically opposed to what Calvin or the Scriptures are saying-right?

Oh-believe me-I pay careful attention to my words.
J.

I asked you twice-and still no answer? Are we mere "passive" in our walk with Christ Jesus-indwelt with the Holy Spirit? Remember-without the Spirit no one belongs to Christ Jesus and all we have is just a mere intellectual gnosis and not epignosis-the eyes of our understanding being enlightened, in the Lev/Kardia-where it really matters.

Shalom
J.

That would be the logical conclusion from your fallacy. If -- as you say -- God first regenerates some before they are saved, and (1) God desires the salvation of all mankind, and (2) Christ came into this world so that the world might be saved, and (3) Christ died for the sins of the whole world, then it follows that according to your belief God would regenerate the whole world without exception, and then save them all!

But we know that that is false and absurd. Only some are saved, and not because they were elected for salvation, but because they repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38). Now please notice what happened here (Acts 16:29-31): Then he [the Philippian jailer] called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Did God already regenerate Him? How could that happen since Christ said this (John 3:5): Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water [the Word of God or the Gospel] and of the [Holy] Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Peter confirm this in 1 Peter 1:23-25: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you.

Te tetted e tettetett tettet? Te tettetett tettek tettese, te!