THE REAL BAPTISM

You continue to bring up that argument in relation to church history. News Flash: Paul taught the gifts of the Holy Spirit. You can find this in the Word of God, 1 Corinthians chapters 12 through 14, and also in Ephesians chapter 4: 7-16.


FYI, The Bible is the authoritative word of God, not the church FATHERS OR THE CHURCH AGE.

Jesus IS THE FOUNDATIONAL TRUTH OF God's Word and the Foundation on which all Scripture must be built. You have been shown that many times. You bring up only movements that is known as Pentacostel movements. Let look at this from your perspective


Church History :

• 325 AD: The First Council of Nicea is never mentioned in the Word of God. It was a movement to protect the deity of Christ and other foundational truths.

• 1150 AD, The universities of Paris and Oxford were founded. The word university is not mentioned in the word of God, nor do Sementary Church fathers speak on that either. It was part of a movement.

• 1517 AD The Reformation, 16th century: The word is not even mentioned in the Word of God because it was an event in Church history, nor did the Bible Teach the Reformation. Oops! It was a movement that Palpcarp Never taught, nor did Clement of Rome, nor did Ignatius of Antioch.

• 1649: Cambridge Platform
• 1678: Bunyan writes the Pilgrim’s Progress
• 1740: Great Awakening peaks
• 1804: British and Foreign Bible Society formed
• 1811: Campbells begin Restoration Movement
• 1833: John Keble’s sermon launches Oxford Movement
• 1857: Prayer Meeting Revival begins in New York
• 1906: Azusa Street revival
• 1934: Wycliffe Bible Translators founded
• 1942: National Association of Evangelicals forms
• 1948: World Council of Churches organized

To your false claims, you said here I will address it :


"And since then many movements came on with strange signs, which we can find in pagan religions, too."

Only those like you and Mr. John McArthur are like him. had to seek Pagan Doctrine to try and disprove the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Calling the action of someone you see on TV who Preaches the Gospel and the Gifts of God for money. You will not find a more vocal preacher than myself on that point. However, Mr. McAarthur is the last person I would listen to about money when he wears $1000-$2000 Dallor suits.


You did not use the word of God to disprove the gifts of the Holy, but they have stopped. He had to go outside of the word of God and Find the pagan belief of the devil and try to make the gifts of the Holy Spirit the same as those pagan beliefs. Your willingness to try and tie that to all Pentecostals is shameful. I am calling out on it as I have before.

There are 2 kinds of baptism that a person should have according to John the Baptist.
1. Water unto Repentance
2. Holy Ghost and With Fire

Of course, the church fathers are not equal to the word of God.
But, if it would be, that the gift of speaking in tongues would be to all believers who receive the Holy Spirit, then we would find in the believer during the whole churchhistory, Independent to which denomination he belongs. Independ they are taught in that matter or not. The Acts Events proofed that they were able to speaking in tongues without any teaching or doctrine.
But it is not! This is for me the proof that this teaching is wrong!
And again to Paul: He said clearly in 1. Cor.12, 29-30 that speaking in tongues is a gift which is not given to all. You can read in what you want. It changes not this fact.!

There you go. " IF" it would be. But its not.

The word of God is the authority and Paul said the gift is for all. There is no other action that is seen in the word of God that was done to draw attention the evidence one was filled with the Holy Spirit than tongues or Prophesying. And the Church father taught on what is known as " utterance." Jesus said in Mark 16:17-18

These signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

The context of 1cor 12:29-30 doesn't end there as you should know. Paul is teaching what is to be done in the church setting which start in chapter 11


1 cor 12: 27-31

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

IN the church setting NO yet Paul says to desire the "best gifts."

What does that mean? it means seek God or ask God for the gift that is needed at the time. When the Body of Christ comes
together for what is known as Church let the gifts be used appropriately.

LOL I careless what is your proof when you take the word of God out of Context.

No one in the New Testament Church in the Book of Acts who were filled with the Holy Spirit were recorded as doing anything other than speaking in tongues or prophesying. That is shown many times. Paul even asked disciples if they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Simon the sorcerer wanted to buy what he saw happen when the Apostles laid their hands on people. what he see or Hear ?

Listen you can mock scoff all you want and chase threads with your old unproven perspective and please do. But you are still wrong and unbiblical ]

The context of 1. Cor 12, 29-30 tells nothing which supports your view. You can explain as much as you want. The text is clear. And you have to create your meaning into the text instead of out of the text.

If Calvin and Wesley had the view which we face since the penecostal movement starts in 1900, why then they dont taught that to there followers?

And you make simply an doctrine from this one time Events?

Because One was teaching holiness, the other was battling the RCC. LOL. Yet both mentioned Utterance of the Spirit.

Try digging deeper into Church history and stop trying to convince the church fathers to agree with you based on a false narrative.

The biblical records in Acts 2, 8, and 10 reveal salvation became available for all groups of humanity; Jews, Gentiles and Samaritans. So why did God chose to have the events of Acts 19 recorded? I contend that it was to show the absolute necessity to be water baptized in the name of Jesus in association with His death, burial and resurrection. And further, it speaks directly to the fact that all individuals must obey the selfsame salvation plan God initially revealed was for all of humanity.

You are serious? You mean the f.e. Calvin and Wesley found out that speaking in tongues is the sign thar someone receives the Holy Spirit, but they dont taught it, because vattling with the RCC or traching holiness Was more important for them?
If it was taught during the church historie, out of cults, why you cant bring serious examples? Or did they hide it?
If you will proof your claim with Acts 2, 8 and 10, then it should be normal for every believer that he speaks in tongues after receving the Holy Spirit. Independent from denomination and teaching.
And this is not the case!!

clearly, you have a language barrier that prevents you from seeing in context. You and I talked enough on this topic how about you refrain I will do the same

The context does not change in any sense what 1. COR 12, 29-30 ff says.
Not all speaking in tongues.

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As I have learned in the real baptism.
The Baptism of John the Baptist is a Pre Requisite of the Baptism of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ can't baptize with the Holy Ghost and with Fire without the baptism of John the Baptist.
Because the Baptism of John the Baptist serve as preparation into Jesus Christ Baptism with the Holy Ghost and with Fire.

This is written in the book of Isaiah and wrote by Matthew.

MATTHEW 3:13
3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

This is how John the Baptist prepare the way of the Lord in order for the Lord to come.

ISAIAH 40:3-4
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make straight [a]in the desert
A highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted
And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made [b]straight
And the rough places smooth;

After the baptism of John the Baptist (means the way of the Lord is prepared) then, Jesus will come for the Baptism with the Holy Ghost with Fire.

This is what Jesus did on the Day of Pentecost.
He baptized his disciples with The Holy Ghost and with Fire.
Disciples were filled with The Holy Ghost like as of Fire and they started to speak what they call SPEAKING TONGUES..

ACTS 2:1-4
2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Therefore: In our times today.
If we accept what is all written in the Holy Bible (from Genesis to Revelation) and not ignoring even just 1 word in it. It means we are baptized in John the Baptist Baptism.
If this is the Preparation To The Way Of The Lord (Isaiah 40:3-4)

Then the next is The Divine Revelation from The Lord itself as what Jesus did to his disciples.

MARK 4:34
34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

We can try to accept all what is written and let us see the result.

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Let us try to accept all what is written as the Baptism of John the Baptist.
The different groups in Christianity claim that they know Jesus.
Regarding doctrines who Jesus is, by presenting it is the truth because it is clearly written in the bible.

There is a group in Christianity they describe Jesus in not a God but a human alone.
This is what they show.

NUMBERS 23:19
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Other group doctrines is Jesus is a God but a Mighty God because his father is The Almighty God.
This is what they read in the bible as a proof.

ISAIAH 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

2 CORINTHIANS 6:18
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

The other groups express that if the name of the son is Jesus Christ, the name of the Father is also Jesus Chrsit and the name of the Holy Spirit is also Jesus Christ.
Therefore the name of God is Jesus Christ. I think they call them Oneness Doctrine.
This is the proof of their belief to Jesus which is written.

MATTHEW 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

ACTS 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Most of the group in Christianity they express that there is only 1 God but in 3 persons. The Father is different from Son, and The Son is different from the Holy Ghost.
This is what is written as a proof.

MATTHEW 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

As I observed, they only took 1 among the 4 description of Jesus Christ and they disregard or neglect the other 3 descriptions.

But for Baptism of John The Baptist, we must take them all.
What will be the result if we accept the 4 descriptions of Jesus Christ where every 1 description can't be reconciled to the other 3 descriptions?
The result is, we will not use our own intellect or understanding, we vow our head and ask for God Mercy because we are admitting that we don't know The Real Jesus Christ as Saul admitted.

As we all know, Saul (who became Paul) loves God, so he wants to serve God. He studied in a bible school to Gamaliel and he became a religious leader. Because this is the way of Saul to serve God. Although Saul became preacher he admitted that he don't know Jesus Christ when Jesus Christ confronted him.

ACTS 9:3-5
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Not knowing The Real Jesus means not knowing The True God.

JOHN 8:19
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also

What will happen if we admit that we don't know The Real Jesus Christ as Saul did? (Baptism of John The Baptist in Water Unto Repentance))
The Lord will have the opportunity to introduce himself (Baptism of The Real Jesus Christ with the Holy Ghost and with Fire).

MATTHEW 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with WATER UNTO REPENTANCE. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the HOLY GHOST, and WITH FIRE:

Thank you Lord, you revealed the importance of the 2 Baptisms.

MATTHEW 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with WATER UNTO REPENTANCE. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the HOLY GHOST, and WITH FIRE:

Thank you Lord, you revealed the importance of the 2 Baptism.

Yeah in a public setting

We should be speaking in tongues in our private prayer life since we don't always know what to pray, or how to pray.

It's too bad to many have allowed the devil to cheat them out of this precious and very valuable gift.


Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT unto men, but unto God: for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Groanings - from G4726, which comes from G4726 (Strong's Greek Concordance)

to sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly: KJV -- with grief, groan, grudge, sigh.

Inarticulate speech, or speech that is not in any known language to man
(In 1 Corinthians 13:1, Paul speaks of talking in the the tongues of angels - a supernatural language)


1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:2 is speaking of our personal prayer language, which is something we do in our prayer closet and not in public.

Some have the gift of speaking a tongue in a public meeting for interpretation by another but should NOT be doing so if no interpreter is present.


1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

This is speaking of different kinds of tongues and that some have the gift of interpretation of tongues.

Not all have the gift of speaking in tongues for interpretation in a public setting like a church service... but that does not mean all don't have the gift of tongues for their private prayer life in their prayer closet between themselves and the Lord.


1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.


Isaiah 28:11,12
For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people,
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

There is a rest and knowledge that comes thru speaking in tongues
(the knowledge received has to agree with God's written Word, otherwise it's not the Holy Spirit speaking)


1 Corinthians 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

A language barrier? You mean english bible teaches different then german bible?
The context does not change in any sense what 1. COR 12, 29-30 ff says.
Not all speaking in tongues.
If the pentecostal/charismatic teaching would be right, then every believer would speak in tongues. This is not the case!
So is Paul wrong or the pentecostal/ charismatic teaching?

Yeah in a public setting

We should be speaking in tongues in our private prayer life since we don't always know what to pray, or how to pray.

It's too bad to many have allowed the devil to cheat them out of this precious and very valuable gift.


Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT unto men, but unto God: for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Groanings - from G4726, which comes from G4726 (Strong's Greek Concordance)

to sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly: KJV -- with grief, groan, grudge, sigh.

Inarticulate speech, or speech that is not in any known language to man
(In 1 Corinthians 13:1, Paul speaks of talking in the the tongues of angels - a supernatural language)


1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:2 is speaking of our personal prayer language, which is something we do in our prayer closet and not in public.

Some have the gift of speaking a tongue in a public meeting for interpretation by another but should NOT be doing so if no interpreter is present.


1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

This is speaking of different kinds of tongues and that some have the gift of interpretation of tongues.

Not all have the gift of speaking in tongues for interpretation in a public setting like a church service... but that does not mean all don't have the gift of tongues for their private prayer life in their prayer closet between themselves and the Lord.


1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.


Isaiah 28:11,12
For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people,
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

There is a rest and knowledge that comes thru speaking in tongues
(the knowledge received has to agree with God's written Word, otherwise it's not the Holy Spirit speaking)


1 Corinthians 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

This is speaking of different kinds of tongues and that some have the gift of interpretation of tongues.

Not all have the gift of speaking in tongues for interpretation in a public setting like a church service... but that does not mean all don't have the gift of tongues for their private prayer life in their prayer closet between themselves and the Lord.

A language barrier? You mean english bible teaches different then german bible?
The context does not change in any sense what 1. COR 12, 29-30 ff says.
Not all speaking in tongues.
If the pentecostal/charismatic teaching would be right, then every believer would speak in tongues. This is not the case!
So is Paul wrong or the pentecostal/ charismatic teaching?

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: We should all know, if not, it points to:

Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Clearly states that when they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost being poured out they ALL spoke with tongues. I believe the rhetorical question that paul said "do all speak with tongues" refers to Public tongues which require interpretation. Because is is very clear in Acts where the Holy Ghost first fell ALL spoke in tongues.

Clearly states that when they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost being poured out they ALL spoke with tongues. I believe the rhetorical question that paul said "do all speak with tongues" refers to Public tongues which require interpretation. Because is is very clear in Acts where the Holy Ghost first fell ALL spoke in tongues.

Does Paul lie in 1 Cor. 12, 10 ? I believe Him more then an man made doctrine.
I dont know which Bible you use. In my bible it says:
"Do all speak with tongues? " And the answer which the question gives is : No
Have all the gift of healing? : No
According your view you must say :Yes.
if all speak in tongues then all have the gift of healing, correct?