Predestination is misunderstood...

No,for 2 reasons.
1. They must be born from above.
2. It is an earthly sorrow that only has them considering the consequences to themselves, and not the offense to a holy God. It doesn't rise to the level of biblical contrition. It is a Godly sorrow that works repentance not to be repented of. This to is an action of God on behalf of an individual.

He knows the end from the Beginning. So He knows everything.

I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done

PaulThomson said:
If God will not despise a broken and contrite spirit (Ps. 51:17), do you think God could refuse to regenerate someone who hears the gospel with their natural ears and is sorry for their sins with their natural conscience and puts trust in Jesus as Saviour with their natural faith before they are regenerated?



So, when you said -

Cameron143 said:
Total depravity simply means that as a result of the fall, every aspect of man was affected. That is, his heart, mind, and will were all corrupted from their original estate.

- you were fudging the fact that you believe it means total inability, And you seem to believe in double predestination: God deliberately predestines many for destruction by deliberately withholding from them the regeneration you believe they need to believe and be saved.. Or do you reject double predestination.

"Using man as a means to get angels to see reality" is what you said.

Your cited text falls well short of expressing the idea that "[God] knows everything."

Your cited text falls well short of expressing the idea that "[God] knows everything."

My apologies as I am on my phone and unable to copy and paste or give the verses while I'm making a post ... I'm technologically challenged while on my phone. I say that because normally I would give the verses with the verse citations...

You don't need time.
God is the SAME yesterday, today, forever

I use YouVersion on my phone, which allows copying. It's clunky and usually requires more post-editing than I prefer, but it is possible.

PaulThomson said:
If God will not despise a broken and contrite spirit (Ps. 51:17), do you think God could refuse to regenerate someone who hears the gospel with their natural ears and is sorry for their sins with their natural conscience and puts trust in Jesus as Saviour with their natural faith before they are regenerated?

firstly none of you where willing to say what the suggestion was in genesis 3, which you had umpteen request to do.

God had them walking in the Garden knowing full well what the outcome would be....

The problem some have is they fail to see that God was teaching angels, and using man as a means to get them to see reality.

The teaching below is Williamson's belief on man's free will and how our reasoning was impacted by that fall. I find that there seems to be much truth in what he wrote.


Free Will – G.I. Williamson – liberty vs ability

In his study guide, Williamson does a very good job of explaining that no other system of teaching safeguards true human liberty and responsibility as does the Reformed Faith.

In doing this he says that that we must carefully note what freedom of the will is and what it is not. By free will we mean that man’s will is not coerced. That he is not forced by some external force greater than himself to do something he does not want to do. We mean that man is free to do what he wants to do within the limits of his ability. However, we must carefully note that liberty is not identical with ability. Many people really mean ability when the say liberty. They speak of man being free to do good or evil when they really mean to say that men are able to do good or evil. This is a serious error! The Bible clearly and consistently teaches (1) man is free to do good or evil, that he is at liberty to do either, but (2) that he is able to do only evil because of his fallen condition. The will cannot escape the moral character out of which it comes. If the soul is entirely corrupt so that its knowledge and desire are defective and rotten, it follows that it will ever will to do that which is evil.

Man originally had a sinless personality. He desired only what was good and well-pleasing to God. He was free to do that which was according to his on desire. And because his nature was wholly uncorrupted his desires were only good. He had absolute liberty and also ability to do good. He had no more liberty to do good than has fallen man, but had complete ability which is totally absent in fallen man. With sin’s entrance man lost ability to do good, not liberty. Before the fall, man was at liberty to do either good or evil and he was able to do either. After the fall he remained free to do either good or evil, but was able to do only evil. Now “every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Gen 6:5). He is able to do good only as he is regenerated in order that he may again possess the good heart and will and to do God’s good pleasure (Eph 2:1ff, John 3:3, Phil 2:13).

The regenerate man possesses the same absolute liberty as did Adam before the fall and sinners after the fall. The difference between unregenerate man is one of ability, not liberty. Both are free to do good, but only one is able to do good. And he is able because God the Holy Sprit has given him a new heart (Eph 2:10). Therefore, he has ability to will and do what is good. Yet his ability is not identical with that which Adam originally had. The regenerate man is not yet able to do God’s will perfectly. He does truly delight in the will of God. He does persist in the way of righteousness. Sin cannot prevail in him as it formally did. But sin is present with him (Rom 7:21). The reason for this is that we are in the process of being made holy.

By and by his work in us will be done (with glorification). But even then, man will possess essentially the same liberty that he now has. The difference again, will be in the measure of his ability, not liberty

OK... its true. I have not been willing.

Not willing to say you are spiritually inept in understanding what it says in Genesis 3.
That you are still very dumb about the nature of God.

I just said what others here have been not willing to say.


Feel better now?

Regeneration begins while we are hearing the Gospel being preached.

44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.

1. We hear the Gospel
2. Holy Spirit falls on us
3. Regeneration begins

Paul wrote it this way

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

1. We hear the Gospel
2. We Believed
3. We were Sealed by the Holy Spirit

no your not willing to discuss genesis 3, in the way in which it should be understood.

PaulThomson said:
False dichotomy. Those are not the only two options. Another option is to read the Bible for yourself and just share with others what you see in a passage and listening to them as to what they truly see in it, and comparing perspectives to decide for yourself what the most persuasive message of the passage is so far, and to be open to learning more and perhaps changing opinions. I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I don't even know what Arminius taught. I base my understanding of scripture on what the Bible says, not on what some mere man says.



I suppose I should have mentioned trusting the Holy Spirit to guide my reading, thinking and understanding. But I was responding to a post which was dealing only with the alleged theologies of Arminius and Calvin, and did not include the Holy Spirit. I am interested in the perspectives of other bible readers, but I want to see whether their reasons for their perspectives stack up with scripture, or are importing presuppositions that do not derive directly from scripture.
I am not about to hand over my personal relationship with God to someone who is no more or less reliable at interpreting scripture than I am. Aeonous life is a relationship with God and Jesus (John 17:3) not a relationship with some other man and His teaching. I won't be selling my aeonous life for a mess of potage.

firstly none of you where willing to say what the suggestion was in genesis 3, which you had umpteen request to do.

It Was someone else who saw the correct suggestion..

That you and all all others knew was there in genesis 3.

And now none if you are willing to discuss the suggestion..

And all your doing is going to other suggestions,

From mans perspective, he experiences salvation at a particular time in his life. But God is not bound by time and place, He preordained everything from the beginning.
So nothing can happen unless He preordained it to happen, there are no accidents or surprises with God. Everything is exactly as He caused it to be, including those who receive the gift of salvation and those who are left in their sin awaiting judgement.

To suggest that man has some input into his salvation is to deny what God has said about how He saves His elect.

There was never a correct suggestion it was only your "assumption."

I am willing to discuss because I continue to answer you. We have a literal 6,000+ years of human history of knowledge from the ancient peoples passed down to us. And in the year of 2024, this is first time someone has chosen to go against the word of those ancient peoples and make this claim that you do. So it's a remorseful suggestion to claim we are not open minded here. We have the truth that's been passed down to us so there seems no point in disregarding their word. It's on you to just create a post and explain your position to see if the Holy Spirit quickens our souls and minds to agree.