Predestination is misunderstood...

To you as well, for us all to seek and hear truth over error, thank you

So, here is the graphic content in workable form. I've expanded the Scripture references to add a bit of context and have underlined the Scriptures actually referenced. Care to wring it out, bit by bit (I'll begin in a separate post)? I will say that at first glance, I like the statements while seeing the need for elaboration and consideration on the Scripture references used for substantiating them:





THE COVENANTAL OUTWORKING OF GOD’S ABSOLUTE LAW UNDER THE NEW COVENANT – THE GRACIOUS LAW OF THE NEW COVENANT

NKJ Romans 6:11-14 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

WHICH IS COVENANTALLY BINDING UPON THE CHURCH

NKJ 1 Corinthians. 9:18-21 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel. 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;

AND CONSISTS OF THE LAW OF LOVE

NKJ Matthew 5:44-45 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

NKJ Galatians 6:1-2 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

NKJ James 2:8-10 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

NKJ Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

THE EXAMPLE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

NKJ John 13:34-35 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

NKJ Philippians 2:1-13 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

CHRIST’S COMMANDS AND TEACHINGS

NKJ Matthew 28:17-20 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

NKJ 2 Peter 3:1-4 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."

THE COMMANDS AND TEACHINGS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES

NKJ 2 Peter 3:1-4 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."

NKJ Ephesians 2:19-22 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

NKJ Jude 1:17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:

NKJ 1 John 5:1-3 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

AND ALL SCRIPTURE INTERPRETED IN LIGHT OF CHRIST JESUS

NKJ Matthew 5:17-18 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

NKJ Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

NKJ Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

NKJ 2 Timothy 3:14-17 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Because the usage of Saints is everywhere. The Church consists of Saints.

Thoughts:

• The author is in effect saying the Law of God in the New Covenant era is one of God's Grace
• This Gracious Law of the New Covenant is the eschatological outworking of God's Plan in history for the Salvation of men.
• Men under New Covenant Grace Law (a.k.a. the Law of Faith, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Law of Christ, etc.) and not under Old Covenant Mosaic Law - men alive in Christ Jesus our Lord through Faith - are freed from being under sin's dominion/rule and are commanded by Christ - by God - under New Covenant Grace Law to:
  • Consider themselves dead to sin
  • To not let sin rule in their mortal body which results in obedience to the mortal body in its desires
  • To not present/place/provide their physical parts to sin as unrighteous tools/weapons
  • To present/place/provide themselves to God as alive from the dead ones
  • To present/place/provide their physical parts to God as righteous tools/weapons
• Not only does this Scripture reference reveal this new era of Grace and New Covenant Law, but Paul in his Apostolic service to Christ also provides in the name of Christ and God, several New Covenant commands of Christ per the Law of Christ.

It takes some thought, but I think I see the point of using this Scripture from Romans as reference for the statement made about the Law of Christ. Of course there are more that can be used.

Your thoughts?

I offered to go through Luke 11 together with you. Then you're gone for days and I'm off to other things.

Take some initiative and start reasoning through Jesus's argument and maybe I'll join you. Use any translation you like. I see one immediate question re: translation below where the English may not make sense.

NKJ Luke 11:

• 17 But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls.
• 18 "If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because you say I cast out demons by Beelzebub.
• 19 "And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.
• 20 "But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Awesome! You sound a lot like David H. Gay.

Here is what Jesus was about....

He was casting out demons with a command.
Jesus was putting them on the spot when he asked them by whom in their sect cast them out!
The Pharisees? THEY COULD NOT!

That means?

The Pharisees self righteously were claiming they were from God.
But they could not do what Jesus could do, whom they said was not from God.

That amounted to what? Jesus doing greater things than they could!

In essence? They were declaring Satan superior to God! = Blasphemy!

In effect, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is declaring that Satan is superior to God - thus, refusing to believe as a result!

THINK!!!!!!!!!

Doesn't Jesus say that "your sons" are casting out demons? So, someone is doing so in addition to Jesus.

Luke does not say the Pharisees are confronting Jesus here. He says some from the crowd were doing so.

One of the issues we were discussing is who "your sons" are.

Then, I suggested there is context to consider and logic Jesus is using that should be reviewed that may cast some light on who these "sons" are.

What is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?????

You get bogged down over arguing over a detail, and miss the big picture.

Sounds like a question on the Jeopardy series (I think it's called). You must watch it.

The discussion you entered into late is about the details of Scripture and not about the big picture or tie to it.

I was taught by more than one very detail oriented instructor that the details of Scripture are important - even vital. Weren't you?

The big pictures need to be substantiated. Maybe the discussion will go from details to a bigger picture. Maybe it won't go anywhere and you can explain what you say.

Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons." But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? "And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.

- Matthew 12:24-27

In the passage above, Jesus is now gaining the upper hand on these hypocrites. The “sons” are the children of the hypocritical Pharisees.

That's a different avatar, sis! Still smiling though!

Part of the discussion we were having is whether or not the event in Luke is the same one mentioned in Matthew and Mark. I along with some others see reason to consider it being a different event. So, since we began in Luke, I wanted to remain in Luke. I referenced an article noted in a few Bibles that suggests Jesus in the Luke event is referring to His disciples as "your sons" when He's talking to the crowd per Luke. It's actually pretty interesting (at least to me) how the writer of the article analyzes Luke and Jesus' logic to make his case.

Oh, okay.

If any interest, see here.

Just to clarify.
The original title of this thread was --- /predestination-is-misunderstood....

So, as you entered into some detail away from the title of this thread?
I chose to enter into the big picture one of the passages you were putting under a microscope.

Point was?

The detail you were wrestling over? Would not change our lives in a big way, though its good to clarify.

Yet, better understanding of the big picture concerning the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit should change lives
of insecure believers who are scared that they have blasphemed and can not be forgiven.

That is why I made the switch.
Just like THE LIBERTY you TOOK earlier to make your switch.

If you want to concentrate solely on your area of interest? Start a new thread.

Time stands still for no one.
Eternity does not care.

grace and peace ..............

And get off his lawn.

Yes ... I was away visiting my son and returned to a pile of work on my desk. I apologized for the delay and you replied "Thanks for the apology, but not necessary" ... and now, apparently, it still is necessary because you again bring up the fact that there was a delay in my reply to you.

studier said:

Take some initiative and start reasoning through Jesus's argument and maybe I'll join you.

Click to expand...

I have taken the initiative, explained my understanding of the record, and I am asking you for your understanding of the record.

Thus far, I have no idea what your understanding of the record is because you simply will not state what you believe.

Like I said, we could use more Aquilas and Priscillas in our day and time.


Acts 18:26 And he [Apollos] began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

studier said:

Use any translation you like. I see one immediate question re: translation below where the English may not make sense.

NKJ Luke 11:

Click to expand...

Who are the "their" to whom Jesus refers?

Luke 11:

14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.

15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

In Luke 11:14, we see the people wondered [Greek thaumazō = to wonder, marvel].

In Luke 11:15, we see some said He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

In Luke 11:16, we see some tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.


I believe Jesus spoke so that all the assembled crowd could hear His words. However, because His statement concerning a "kingdom divided against itself" speaks to what was said in vs 15 and He responded to those who "sought of Him a sign from heaven" beginning in vs 29, I believe the "their" in vs 17 refers to the "some of them" in vs 15.

Agree or disagree that the "their" in vs 17 refers refers to "some of them" in vs 15?

If you disagree, please explain your reasoning.

Thanks.
.

Based on your post you linked to, it appears people think the "your sons" are Jesus' disciples because of the judgment that follows but I always saw that passage as it was the demons who would judge the false teachers (the ones accusing Jesus of doing the devils work).

Luke 11:19
19 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they (the demons) will be your judges.

My reasoning is twofold.

1. I don't recall anywhere in scripture where it speaks of believers judging unbelievers.
2. The example we have in Acts below.

Acts 19:14-16
14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?” 16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

interesting ... thanks for that insight ...

I submitted this at Post 6802:


I'll have to ponder whether the "they" of vs 19 refers to demons.

sawdust said:

2. The example we have in Acts below.

Acts 19:14-16
14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?” 16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Click to expand...

This record is a sad depiction concerning those who are charged with teaching the truth of God's Word.
.