God and Time

Agreed.
I also interpret those teachings of Jesus as ways of "letting go" of trying to control everything and focus on God primarily, because while you are alive you will never be able to touch everything or figure out everything, so your joy should come primarily internally not externally. This is also supported by Paul's letters that say that "i am content with everything, to live is Christ and to die is gain."

So, based on these passages and our observations of reality, it could mean that Time is an illusion, and other passages along with observation of reality say that Time itself, or our perception of it, was created in the beginning. This is what the majority of scholars, scientists and theologians say too.

These are some of the mysteries that will be revealed as it's said on 1 John 3:2 or in Luke 12:2.

Wrong again. If time was created and God has always existed, He's not temporal. By itself, I don't find your view as heretical, just fanciful.

Ok , but what does this have to do with "time " ? I'm not making a connection to the term and meaning of " time " seems your saying God is eternal lol I agree

It is quite possible that other universes existed before our universe was created. But I am
not suggesting that our universe existed before it was created. That's what a timeless God
would entail. If God is timeless, this creation could never "come into existence" from God's
perspective. Its existence would be in a timeless NOW with every other reality.

PaulThomson said:
Great, so we agree that considering God as temporal, that is having duration, albeit infinite duration, is not heresy. Excellent!




So we agree that considering God as temporal, that is having duration, albeit infinite duration, is not heresy. Excellent!

I never agreed to a single now. I'm ok with the fact that everything about God hasn't been revealed or is beyond finding out.

PaulThomson said:
God thinking sequential thoughts means that temporality is an attribute of the medium within which those thoughts happen. Hence, temporality, like agapay love, are attributes of God, and as such temporality is uncreated/uncaused.



I defined time: Time is the sequence found in all events everywhere, such that there are events that are truly prior to other events. If there was ever an event A prior to some specific event B, then both those events, A and B, must take time to occur, and the environment/medium within which they occur must include the attribute of temporality.[/QUOTE

I think you may have temporal insanity.

If you start with a definition of time, then we can examine that, and see if it qualifies as a divine attribute.

Prior to a proper definition, you're sort of making claims about nothing... some nebulous thing that isn't identified.


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In Jeremiah 33 God cites his covenant with the day and the night, " If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that day and night cease to occupy their appointed time" (v.20) and, " If I have not established My covenant with the day and the night and the fixed order of heaven and earth," (v. 25). And scientists assert that order came out of chaos, and I suppose this is from an assumption that the opposite of order is chaos, although I also suppose that most (secular scientists) believe that chaos is the cause of order. But if "without form and void" implies any sort of chaos then can and how would time be attributed within that frame of existence?

Sorry, I am not sure I understand the question.

"Immutability and changelessness in God are not biblical"

According to all orthodox Christian traditions with which I'm aware...
that statement constitutes actual heresy.


It's also very easy to disprove from scripture.

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Just a passing thought here, that is based on the Scriptures. The Lord pronounces Himself as unchangeable.

Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Thanks for your reply. I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. Allow me to explain…

First, when we speak of essence, we. are talking about God’s being or ontology. Essence is defined as “the permanent as contrasted with accidental element of being.” Thus, if part of who God is by his very nature is one who, as a personal being, has a past, present and a future. I would argue that this is the most natural way to understand the biblical texts. In fact, describing God as “eternal” suggests an endless duration through time. Passages that speak of God having no beginning or end indicate a persisting through time rather than transcending it. God is described as being one who “lives forever” and “our God forever and ever.” He is pictured as one who has been “enthroned from of old; you are everlasting.” “Even they will perish, but you endure…But you are the same, your years will not come to an end.“ All these texts indicate an unending duration and a past that spans throughout time, not independent of it. So yes, as the texts describe God, his everlasting nature is a fundamental part of his being. In fact, I would argue that those who argue that God stands apart from time are also staking a claim on his essence. I just dont think the Bible supports it.

If anything, I think the verse you quoted supports my claim more than yours. The author does not say that time does not apply to God. Rather, the statement is that time applies differently to God which supports a metatemporal view rather than an atemporal one. Since God is eternal, his experience of time is far different than moral beings…especially if God’s time is different from our own.

I never said that God cannot operate in time if atemporality is true. I said that time does not apply to Him. So, even though he may interact in our time, for him, if time does not exist, there is no before or after. He never thinks a new thought or performs a new act. All of these things demand a before and after. In order for God to “create” anything, there has to be a TIME when something did not exist and a TIME when it existed afterwards. Yet, if God does not exist in time, all things are present. So, while he may interact in our ”time” for him, all things are immediately present. So while for us, God’s acts may be sequential, for him, they are not. Moreover, a timeless being, imo cannot represent the God we see in the Bible who is a personal, caring, involved God who “remembers, deliberates, anticipates, decides, intends, is grieved, becomes angry, and rejoices” (Hasker, 150).
This is incompatible with a God for whom all events are simultaneously present and never experiences a new moment or thought.

I dont understand your point about foreknowledge. It seems you are undermining the point you are trying to make. To have knowledge “beforehand” indicates TIME. Before means prior to the event itself. Thus, to know something before it happens is to have knowledge of things before they happen. Now certainly this could apply to both an atemporal or temporal God if we are speaking of Gods knowledge of things from our perspective. Certainly God has foreknowledge in either case, but if God himself possesses foreknowledge from his perspective, it would imply he exists in time. I just brought up foreknowledge because of the notion that a temporal or metatemporal God necessitates he does not know the future. I dont think we have to conclude God does not exist in time to possess knowledge of things prior to their occurrence .

Im not arguing that an atemporal God is “impossible.” Certainly it is a valid theory and I can imagine a God that exists outside of time. However, I cannot imagine that God being the Christian God. I cannot reconcile God’s engagement in the world as a personal, engaged and interactive Creator who becomes man as being a God who exists in an eternal present and is not genuinely shocked, saddened, angered, or blessed by our temporal actions.

Just a passing thought here, that is based on the Scriptures. The Lord pronounces Himself as unchangeable.

Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The context of Malachi is God's rebuke of Israel/Jacob for treachery in breaking her covenants with God and with wives. God says He does not change in the context of his covenants with Jacob and His marriage to her. . It is not an absolutist metaphysical claim to never changing in any way..

I appreciate your reply and the lively banter on this subject. However, in the end, with our limited knowledge, we are just floating ideas which we cannot prove - one way or the other. For the Lord Himself said:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And again:

Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

As to the word "foreknowledge", one needs to understand that the Greek word is a compound word made of two parts. The first is "before" and the second is "to know". Many have a misunderstanding of this word as it applies to God. It does not mean that God knew something before it happened but rather God "knew" of it always. Therefore God knew it before it happened because He knows all things. Thus, "foreknowledge" as it applies to God, speaks to His "intimate" knowledge of a thing and not to it's relationship to time. Only when viewed by creation, would one say it to be before it happened. In God's Mind it has already taken place. Unfortunately, for us to discuss the subject, we have to use "time" words because this is all we have ever known.

But to further illustrate the point, Let's take this example:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

The Greek word here is: προέγνω which is an Aorist tense verb, thus pointing to past action. In this verse, it does not simply mean that God had some kind of knowledge of a person beforehand but rather that God had a "intimate" relationship with this person prior to creation. The Greek word used here, in it's context, doesn't simply mean "to know", as in knowledge but carries the meaning of intimacy - such as we would see in the OT. To know one was to be intimate with that one. Such as: Adam "knew" his wife.

Therefore, God had an intimate relationship with this person before He ever created this person. There was never a time when God did not know this person intimately and in knowing a person in this way is one and the same as the real thing in God's mind. Thus, in this way, time has no meaning to God as it does to us. In this same way, we see verses like:

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

How could individuals be placed into Christ even before God created or Jesus was born?

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Or how could it be said, that the names are not written in the Lamb's book of life and that Jesus Christ was considered "slain" from before creation?

I hope you understand the point I am making. It is difficult to articulate all of the details.

An interesting philosophical concept to consider is the notion of God’s relationship to time. Many Christian are quick to claim that God is not subject to time. This view is known as atemporalism. At first glance, this view seems sound as it affirms God’s immutability, highlights God’s omniscience and seeks to exalt God as one who sits over the constraints of time.

However, there are some serious concerns with this view. First, if this view is correct, God exists in a constant state of stasis. Everything would be a frozen present to God. Thus, creation, redemption and recreation would all be simultaneous events for God. In fact, it would call into question the very concept of God creating the world ex nihilo. For, how could God create the universe which had not previously existed if, for God, there could never be a first moment of creation. Second, the biblical notion that God became flesh would also be called into question as, there would never be a moment for God when God was not Jesus of Nazareth. Finally, this notion would cause us to reconsider God’s interactions with humanity we see in Scripture that is replete with warnings, answered prayers, forgiveness, anger, love and other acts which indicate God is responding and interacting with humanity based on human actions in time. This view is also popular among Calvinists as they use this philosophical notion as justification for God‘s predetermination of the elect and damned based on his sovereign declaration rather than human response. It would only make sense that if everything is a frozen constant to God, then the moment of creation would also be the moment of salvation. God knowing everything prior to creation would have created the world in such a way as to have predetermined all outcomes.

A second view on God‘s relationship with time is temporalism. This view suggests that God exists in time. In the same way humans are subject to time, so is God. Yet for God, his past is infinite as well as his future. In some ways, this fits many of the Biblical descriptions of God’s interaction with time as he is referred to as one who is “from everlasting to everlasting,” “the first and the last,“ and “before all time and now and forever“ (Jude 25). This is not to say that God is subject to time, as if he is inferior to time itself. Rather, that time is part of God’s essence or being. Theologians from this view hold a range of different theological positions from Reformed theologians, Arminians and openness theologians.

A third view would argue that God is metatemporal. Similar to the temporal view, this view claims that God does exist in time. However, God does stand outside the human timeline. This view holds that there is created time and uncreated time. God stands outside the created timeline of the universe he made, but still exists in his own time which is part of his very essence. Thus, God does interact with humanity based on the flow of time and God, himself, along with his thoughts and actions do have a past, present and future. So the encounters with humanity along time are not merely anthropomorphic as atemporalists would argue, but are genuine responses to past and present actions.

What are your thoughts about God and time? I am interesting in discussing your thoughts and their implications on how we understand the teachings of Scripture.