God and Time

[Pilgrimshope]

Agreed.
I also interpret those teachings of Jesus as ways of "letting go" of trying to control everything and focus on God primarily, because while you are alive you will never be able to touch everything or figure out everything, so your joy should come primarily internally not externally. This is also supported by Paul's letters that say that "i am content with everything, to live is Christ and to die is gain."

So, based on these passages and our observations of reality, it could mean that Time is an illusion, and other passages along with observation of reality say that Time itself, or our perception of it, was created in the beginning. This is what the majority of scholars, scientists and theologians say too.

These are some of the mysteries that will be revealed as it's said on 1 John 3:2 or in Luke 12:2.

Sorry I hadn't seen this or the notification yes I think this is my own conclusion also


"based on these passages and our observations of reality, it could mean that Time is an illusion, and other passages along with observation of reality say that Time itself, or our perception of it,"


I think maybe our perception of time is what time actually is and that's created by the movements of the earth in relation to the sun designed by God like the original clock that doesn't keep time but creates it and then mans need for time is to keep track of how it is lassing away always . A true statement of our mortality is the perception of time always fleeting away . As we get old we see that perception better and mortality is more apparent as that last day approaches from the future illusion of time , and our fond memories comfort and call to us from the past can remember moments like yesterday and hope on things far away as if they are with us already because time is an illusion if you look ahead or behind but then it actually exists as a constant moving motion and we are perceiving this motion by the passage of time


If there's no end to my "time " as we see, it meaning eternal life offered to a certainly dying man, this can change his perception of time it if it's believable to him and he grabs into it . Time sort of goes away the need for that concept or perception if it's not fading away in my strange mind I can't see watching a clock and being aware of time in an eternal format and arena. If it takes ten thousand years or a day what would the relevance really be without the effects of the motion of time passing ?

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Great, so we agree that considering God as temporal, that is having duration, albeit infinite duration, is not heresy. Excellent!

Wrong again. If time was created and God has always existed, He's not temporal. By itself, I don't find your view as heretical, just fanciful.

So we agree that considering God as temporal, that is having duration, albeit infinite duration, is not heresy. Excellent!

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
God thinking sequential thoughts means that temporality is an attribute of the medium within which those thoughts happen. Hence, temporality, like agapay love, are attributes of God, and as such temporality is uncreated/uncaused.

Ok , but what does this have to do with "time " ? I'm not making a connection to the term and meaning of " time " seems your saying God is eternal lol I agree

I defined time: Time is the sequence found in all events everywhere, such that there are events that are truly prior to other events. If there was ever an event A prior to some specific event B, then both those events, A and B, must take time to occur, and the environment/medium within which they occur must include the attribute of temporality.

 

[Magenta]

It is quite possible that other universes existed before our universe was created. But I am
not suggesting that our universe existed before it was created. That's what a timeless God
would entail. If God is timeless, this creation could never "come into existence" from God's
perspective. Its existence would be in a timeless NOW with every other reality.

I saw the movie where multiple universes existed contemporaneously. I do enjoy such offerings as entertainment.

In a Bible discussion forum, the Bible is most often the topic, though, not sci-fi. But carry on.

 

[Cameron143]

PaulThomson said:
Great, so we agree that considering God as temporal, that is having duration, albeit infinite duration, is not heresy. Excellent!




So we agree that considering God as temporal, that is having duration, albeit infinite duration, is not heresy. Excellent!

I think you may have temporal insanity.

 

[Mem]

In Jeremiah 33 God cites his covenant with the day and the night, " If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that day and night cease to occupy their appointed time" (v.20) and, " If I have not established My covenant with the day and the night and the fixed order of heaven and earth," (v. 25). And scientists assert that order came out of chaos, and I suppose this is from an assumption that the opposite of order is chaos, although I also suppose that most (secular scientists) believe that chaos is the cause of order. But if "without form and void" implies any sort of chaos then can and how would time be attributed within that frame of existence?

 

[PaulThomson]

I never agreed to a single now. I'm ok with the fact that everything about God hasn't been revealed or is beyond finding out.

We agree 100% on those points.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

PaulThomson said:
God thinking sequential thoughts means that temporality is an attribute of the medium within which those thoughts happen. Hence, temporality, like agapay love, are attributes of God, and as such temporality is uncreated/uncaused.



I defined time: Time is the sequence found in all events everywhere, such that there are events that are truly prior to other events. If there was ever an event A prior to some specific event B, then both those events, A and B, must take time to occur, and the environment/medium within which they occur must include the attribute of temporality.[/QUOTE

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think you may have temporal insanity.

Frontal lobe abnormality I think is the PC term

 

[Chaps]

If you start with a definition of time, then we can examine that, and see if it qualifies as a divine attribute.

Prior to a proper definition, you're sort of making claims about nothing... some nebulous thing that isn't identified.


.

I would define ”time” as a “means of measuring distance through space” or something like that. That distance can include a succession of events.

I am not making claims about nothing. I think one of two options must be true:
1. God exists outside time and therefore part of his nature is to be atemporal. Time exists solely as part of God’s creation.
or,
2. God has existed eternally in time and perhaps time is part of His enduring nature.

Since, as PaulThompson stated above, I think it is logically contradictory to suggest that God can exist outside of time (no succession of events, thoughts or actions…but in a constant present) and be actively creating the universe ex nihilo. I think #2 is more logically consistent with the Biblical narrative.

To create something out of nothing indicates motion through space. How can this be if God exists in a frozen present? How can things move or transition if there is no past by which the motion is measured or succession of events by which something can change?

 

[Chaps]

In Jeremiah 33 God cites his covenant with the day and the night, " If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that day and night cease to occupy their appointed time" (v.20) and, " If I have not established My covenant with the day and the night and the fixed order of heaven and earth," (v. 25). And scientists assert that order came out of chaos, and I suppose this is from an assumption that the opposite of order is chaos, although I also suppose that most (secular scientists) believe that chaos is the cause of order. But if "without form and void" implies any sort of chaos then can and how would time be attributed within that frame of existence?

Sorry, I am not sure I understand the question.

 

[Mem]

Sorry, I am not sure I understand the question.

I couldn't recall exactly whether it was you, the OP, or PaulThomson (and going back through over 300 posts within the thread stood to be an exhausting task for me) which had stated his opinion about a spherical model of the space time continuum, so I threw the question out trusting that the 'parent" of that particular 'brainchild' would recognize it. And Paul did and offered his clarification. Tyvm! though, for checking to be sure!

 

[Mem]

I don't think I would be digressing from the topic too much if, with consideration to the topic of God and time, although not so much as to whether time is created or an attribute of God, I will assume here that time is created, and so for some particular purpose, until I happen upon an argument that might convince me otherwise.

So, in regard to 'as in the days of Noah' and God recalibrating man's allotment to 120 years and then the flood came... I wondered...
might there be some peculiar events that, if we count back 120 years, might show this year as one to take much note of...?

Well... I can't be sure as only God knows the day and the hour.... but....

take a look at the events listed for 1904 ( a leap year)...

Jan 7: the distress signal is established...changed to years later to SOS

Jan 8: the Blackstone Library is dedicated (a Blackstone is indicative of judgment in roman practice (and is the Greek translated to the English 'torment'...)

April 6: oseph F Smith (nephew of the founder of the LDS church) announces the second manifesto in general conference of the LDS church in Utah, prohibiting the practice of polygamy, which has continued to be sanctioned by some of its leaders in violation of the 1890 manifesto officially banning the practice (taking wives whomever they chose...)

April 8: Longacre Square is renamed Times Square;
and April 8-10: Alister Crowley writes the Book of the Law, a text central to Thelema, in Cairo

Dececember 31: the first New Year's Eve celebration is held in Times Square...

 

[awelight]

"Immutability and changelessness in God are not biblical"

According to all orthodox Christian traditions with which I'm aware...
that statement constitutes actual heresy.


It's also very easy to disprove from scripture.

.

Just a passing thought here, that is based on the Scriptures. The Lord pronounces Himself as unchangeable.

Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

 

[PaulThomson]

Just a passing thought here, that is based on the Scriptures. The Lord pronounces Himself as unchangeable.

Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The context of Malachi is God's rebuke of Israel/Jacob for treachery in breaking her covenants with God and with wives. God says He does not change in the context of his covenants with Jacob and His marriage to her. . It is not an absolutist metaphysical claim to never changing in any way..

 

[awelight]

Thanks for your reply. I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. Allow me to explain…

First, when we speak of essence, we. are talking about God’s being or ontology. Essence is defined as “the permanent as contrasted with accidental element of being.” Thus, if part of who God is by his very nature is one who, as a personal being, has a past, present and a future. I would argue that this is the most natural way to understand the biblical texts. In fact, describing God as “eternal” suggests an endless duration through time. Passages that speak of God having no beginning or end indicate a persisting through time rather than transcending it. God is described as being one who “lives forever” and “our God forever and ever.” He is pictured as one who has been “enthroned from of old; you are everlasting.” “Even they will perish, but you endure…But you are the same, your years will not come to an end.“ All these texts indicate an unending duration and a past that spans throughout time, not independent of it. So yes, as the texts describe God, his everlasting nature is a fundamental part of his being. In fact, I would argue that those who argue that God stands apart from time are also staking a claim on his essence. I just dont think the Bible supports it.

If anything, I think the verse you quoted supports my claim more than yours. The author does not say that time does not apply to God. Rather, the statement is that time applies differently to God which supports a metatemporal view rather than an atemporal one. Since God is eternal, his experience of time is far different than moral beings…especially if God’s time is different from our own.

I never said that God cannot operate in time if atemporality is true. I said that time does not apply to Him. So, even though he may interact in our time, for him, if time does not exist, there is no before or after. He never thinks a new thought or performs a new act. All of these things demand a before and after. In order for God to “create” anything, there has to be a TIME when something did not exist and a TIME when it existed afterwards. Yet, if God does not exist in time, all things are present. So, while he may interact in our ”time” for him, all things are immediately present. So while for us, God’s acts may be sequential, for him, they are not. Moreover, a timeless being, imo cannot represent the God we see in the Bible who is a personal, caring, involved God who “remembers, deliberates, anticipates, decides, intends, is grieved, becomes angry, and rejoices” (Hasker, 150).
This is incompatible with a God for whom all events are simultaneously present and never experiences a new moment or thought.

I dont understand your point about foreknowledge. It seems you are undermining the point you are trying to make. To have knowledge “beforehand” indicates TIME. Before means prior to the event itself. Thus, to know something before it happens is to have knowledge of things before they happen. Now certainly this could apply to both an atemporal or temporal God if we are speaking of Gods knowledge of things from our perspective. Certainly God has foreknowledge in either case, but if God himself possesses foreknowledge from his perspective, it would imply he exists in time. I just brought up foreknowledge because of the notion that a temporal or metatemporal God necessitates he does not know the future. I dont think we have to conclude God does not exist in time to possess knowledge of things prior to their occurrence .

Im not arguing that an atemporal God is “impossible.” Certainly it is a valid theory and I can imagine a God that exists outside of time. However, I cannot imagine that God being the Christian God. I cannot reconcile God’s engagement in the world as a personal, engaged and interactive Creator who becomes man as being a God who exists in an eternal present and is not genuinely shocked, saddened, angered, or blessed by our temporal actions.

I appreciate your reply and the lively banter on this subject. However, in the end, with our limited knowledge, we are just floating ideas which we cannot prove - one way or the other. For the Lord Himself said:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And again:

Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

As to the word "foreknowledge", one needs to understand that the Greek word is a compound word made of two parts. The first is "before" and the second is "to know". Many have a misunderstanding of this word as it applies to God. It does not mean that God knew something before it happened but rather God "knew" of it always. Therefore God knew it before it happened because He knows all things. Thus, "foreknowledge" as it applies to God, speaks to His "intimate" knowledge of a thing and not to it's relationship to time. Only when viewed by creation, would one say it to be before it happened. In God's Mind it has already taken place. Unfortunately, for us to discuss the subject, we have to use "time" words because this is all we have ever known.

But to further illustrate the point, Let's take this example:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

The Greek word here is: προέγνω which is an Aorist tense verb, thus pointing to past action. In this verse, it does not simply mean that God had some kind of knowledge of a person beforehand but rather that God had a "intimate" relationship with this person prior to creation. The Greek word used here, in it's context, doesn't simply mean "to know", as in knowledge but carries the meaning of intimacy - such as we would see in the OT. To know one was to be intimate with that one. Such as: Adam "knew" his wife.

Therefore, God had an intimate relationship with this person before He ever created this person. There was never a time when God did not know this person intimately and in knowing a person in this way is one and the same as the real thing in God's mind. Thus, in this way, time has no meaning to God as it does to us. In this same way, we see verses like:

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

How could individuals be placed into Christ even before God created or Jesus was born?

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Or how could it be said, that the names are not written in the Lamb's book of life and that Jesus Christ was considered "slain" from before creation?

I hope you understand the point I am making. It is difficult to articulate all of the details.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Just a passing thought here, that is based on the Scriptures. The Lord pronounces Himself as unchangeable.

Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[awelight]

The context of Malachi is God's rebuke of Israel/Jacob for treachery in breaking her covenants with God and with wives. God says He does not change in the context of his covenants with Jacob and His marriage to her. . It is not an absolutist metaphysical claim to never changing in any way..

You are absolutely correct as to the context and it's immediate meaning. However, you seemed to have missed the point of our Lord.

They were safe in the covenant promise BECAUSE He "changes not". If God could change, then not only would Jacob perhaps be in trouble but we too, as Christians, would have no assurance that God will keep His promises. Also, there are these verses:

1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind. (NIV)
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
James 1:16 Be not deceived, my beloved brethren.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I appreciate your reply and the lively banter on this subject. However, in the end, with our limited knowledge, we are just floating ideas which we cannot prove - one way or the other. For the Lord Himself said:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And again:

Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

As to the word "foreknowledge", one needs to understand that the Greek word is a compound word made of two parts. The first is "before" and the second is "to know". Many have a misunderstanding of this word as it applies to God. It does not mean that God knew something before it happened but rather God "knew" of it always. Therefore God knew it before it happened because He knows all things. Thus, "foreknowledge" as it applies to God, speaks to His "intimate" knowledge of a thing and not to it's relationship to time. Only when viewed by creation, would one say it to be before it happened. In God's Mind it has already taken place. Unfortunately, for us to discuss the subject, we have to use "time" words because this is all we have ever known.

But to further illustrate the point, Let's take this example:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

The Greek word here is: προέγνω which is an Aorist tense verb, thus pointing to past action. In this verse, it does not simply mean that God had some kind of knowledge of a person beforehand but rather that God had a "intimate" relationship with this person prior to creation. The Greek word used here, in it's context, doesn't simply mean "to know", as in knowledge but carries the meaning of intimacy - such as we would see in the OT. To know one was to be intimate with that one. Such as: Adam "knew" his wife.

Therefore, God had an intimate relationship with this person before He ever created this person. There was never a time when God did not know this person intimately and in knowing a person in this way is one and the same as the real thing in God's mind. Thus, in this way, time has no meaning to God as it does to us. In this same way, we see verses like:

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

How could individuals be placed into Christ even before God created or Jesus was born?

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Or how could it be said, that the names are not written in the Lamb's book of life and that Jesus Christ was considered "slain" from before creation?

I hope you understand the point I am making. It is difficult to articulate all of the details.

“Therefore, God had an intimate relationship with this person before He ever created this person.”

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:34-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Or how could it be said, that the names are not written in the Lamb's book of life and that Jesus Christ was considered "slain" from before creation?”

God had already determined what he would do to redeem mankknd in Christ the man God made flesh

“but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[cv5]

An interesting philosophical concept to consider is the notion of God’s relationship to time. Many Christian are quick to claim that God is not subject to time. This view is known as atemporalism. At first glance, this view seems sound as it affirms God’s immutability, highlights God’s omniscience and seeks to exalt God as one who sits over the constraints of time.

However, there are some serious concerns with this view. First, if this view is correct, God exists in a constant state of stasis. Everything would be a frozen present to God. Thus, creation, redemption and recreation would all be simultaneous events for God. In fact, it would call into question the very concept of God creating the world ex nihilo. For, how could God create the universe which had not previously existed if, for God, there could never be a first moment of creation. Second, the biblical notion that God became flesh would also be called into question as, there would never be a moment for God when God was not Jesus of Nazareth. Finally, this notion would cause us to reconsider God’s interactions with humanity we see in Scripture that is replete with warnings, answered prayers, forgiveness, anger, love and other acts which indicate God is responding and interacting with humanity based on human actions in time. This view is also popular among Calvinists as they use this philosophical notion as justification for God‘s predetermination of the elect and damned based on his sovereign declaration rather than human response. It would only make sense that if everything is a frozen constant to God, then the moment of creation would also be the moment of salvation. God knowing everything prior to creation would have created the world in such a way as to have predetermined all outcomes.

A second view on God‘s relationship with time is temporalism. This view suggests that God exists in time. In the same way humans are subject to time, so is God. Yet for God, his past is infinite as well as his future. In some ways, this fits many of the Biblical descriptions of God’s interaction with time as he is referred to as one who is “from everlasting to everlasting,” “the first and the last,“ and “before all time and now and forever“ (Jude 25). This is not to say that God is subject to time, as if he is inferior to time itself. Rather, that time is part of God’s essence or being. Theologians from this view hold a range of different theological positions from Reformed theologians, Arminians and openness theologians.

A third view would argue that God is metatemporal. Similar to the temporal view, this view claims that God does exist in time. However, God does stand outside the human timeline. This view holds that there is created time and uncreated time. God stands outside the created timeline of the universe he made, but still exists in his own time which is part of his very essence. Thus, God does interact with humanity based on the flow of time and God, himself, along with his thoughts and actions do have a past, present and future. So the encounters with humanity along time are not merely anthropomorphic as atemporalists would argue, but are genuine responses to past and present actions.

What are your thoughts about God and time? I am interesting in discussing your thoughts and their implications on how we understand the teachings of Scripture.

God, and Jesus DEFINE Themselves as outside of time, unequivocally.
Their self-description as "I AM" clearly declares Them and Them alone to be the only Beings who exist eternally in the present. Who consequently know the end from the beginning.

Exo 3:14
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.' ”

Jhn 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am ("he" not in the text), ye shall die in your sins.
Jhn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Not only that, They say that They ARE THE CREATORS of time itself. I am time and creation is the thrust here.

Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Nevertheless, the Trinity, Who created time, enter into Their creation, as a means to SAVE THEIR CREATURES.
An aspect of Their plan of salvation made before the foundation of time and creation, a plan made outside of time.

BTW.......God never needs new information......He has all of it already. Which is why Jesus is the ONLY One who can judge the world in perfect righteousness. He and the Trinity alone know everything there is to know about everything and everyone.

And yes, God created the lights which were a created cosmic clockworks......for OUR sake. For the sake of the creatures made of flesh.
I doubt that any of this newly created timekeeping apparatus is required for the angels.....it was created AFTER they had already been created.

Gen 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: