Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

Well you see it like that and I see your view as not being able to let go of the little bit of credit that you feel you deserve for making the "right choice". That glory belongs to God in TRUTH, and you just can't let go of it trying to claim it as your own. You are trying to take Gods glory the way I see it, and frankly the way the bible clearly spells it out. There is NOTHING a person can do to save themselves, we are dead in our sin, even repentance is a gift from God, the same God that MUST draw us in, salvation is by grace not a met requirement, God is sovereign, have you ever looked up what this word means? The list goes on and on, however I do also believe we clearly have choice. BIG QUESTION, who get's the credit for your choice to choose Jesus? <--- This is the point and main question, who does the glory for this CHOICE belong to? See I was blessed with a personal testimony that completely prevents me from being able to claim I was even aware of what was happening the day I was granted repentance and was born again. I KNOW for a gospel truth fact that I didn't choose a dang thing that day, so ALL glory belongs to Him and Him along. I believe this is just as true when the person is on their knees at an altar call praying to Jesus and is reborn in truth then and there. That was 0% the church house, 0% the preacher, 0% the mans decision to walk up front when called, and it was 100% God lest any one of them boast. That said God obviously used every bit of them to bring that to be. Crazy right?

That's one thing I want to make clear that I believe is the biggest point of disconnection here, I believe in choice, I just also believe in Gods sovereign power, how those two work together to bring about His perfect will is beyond my capabilities, but I feel it's important to be very clear that God gets ALL the glory for my salvation, and even the glory for the just punishment of every sinner, I don't get to be a critic of God.

Well you see it like that and I see your view as not being able to let go of the little bit of credit that you feel you deserve for making the "right choice". That glory belongs to God in TRUTH, and you just can't let go of it trying to claim it as your own. You are trying to take Gods glory the way I see it, and frankly the way the bible clearly spells it out. There is NOTHING a person can do to save themselves, we are dead in our sin, even repentance is a gift from God, the same God that MUST draw us in, salvation is by grace not a met requirement, God is sovereign, have you ever looked up what this word means? The list goes on and on, however I do also believe we clearly have choice. BIG QUESTION, who get's the credit for your choice to choose Jesus? <--- This is the point and main question, who does the glory for this CHOICE belong to? See I was blessed with a personal testimony that completely prevents me from being able to claim I was even aware of what was happening the day I was granted repentance and was born again. I KNOW for a gospel truth fact that I didn't choose a dang thing that day, so ALL glory belongs to Him and Him along. I believe this is just as true when the person is on their knees at an altar call praying to Jesus and is reborn in truth then and there. That was 0% the church house, 0% the preacher, 0% the mans decision to walk up front when called, and it was 100% God lest any one of them boast. That said God obviously used every bit of them to bring that to be. Crazy right?

That's one thing I want to make clear that I believe is the biggest point of disconnection here, I believe in choice, I just also believe in Gods sovereign power, how those two work together to bring about His perfect will is beyond my capabilities, but I feel it's important to be very clear that God gets ALL the glory for my salvation, and even the glory for the just punishment of every sinner, I don't get to be a critic of God.

You may or not be right. The person themselves may or may not know. How many people that you prayed with later expressed doubts about their salvation?

I'm not denying the necessity of a changed heart nor that it is Jesus who works in creating a new heart within us. But I can't conscientiously deny that no one can will to have a new heart even without the power to perform it.

All new Christians have doubts, that doesn't mean they weren't saved at the altar. That means they need to grow. That's why Billy Graham had churches involved in his concerts. He understand that people need to grow in the faith, and a good Bible based church is the best way to do that.

I agree churches should be involved. And I agree some doubt doesn't negate salvation, but neither does it confirm it.

That's why as their brothers and sisters we need to come along side them and encourage them in their growth. Back in the day they use to have meetings in people homes where they could study the Bible and ask questions and grow. It could easily be done these days with phones and computers.

Sure. My only point was that not everyone who answers an altar call and says a sinner's prayer is saved.

If done with a sincere heart, they are saved. But my point is they were able to respond to salvation. And in doing so, does not in any way mean they saved themselves.

If done with a sincere heart, they are saved. But my point is they were able to respond to salvation. And in doing so, does not in any way mean they saved themselves.

No one can save themselves. But was speaking one day and told a group listening that they being evil knew how to give good gifts to their children. The people were obviously not saved, but still had the capacity to do good things. So what made them still evil?

The first step is not a choice.

I gotta agree. The first step is Grace. …because it was our Lord Jesus who went to that Cross. It was God’s grace. Then comes the acceptance or rejection from each and every one of us.

No one can save themselves. But was speaking one day and told a group listening that they being evil knew how to give good gifts to their children. The people were obviously not saved, but still had the capacity to do good things. So what made them still evil?

But this issue isn't are they sinners? The issue is that they are able to respond to the Holy Spirits call. Yes, they are. And that doesn't mean they saved themselves. See what I'm getting at?

Yes, Grace is a big word and yes, going to the cross was indeed an act of grace.
So no one is refuting the need for grace.

But this issue isn't are they sinners? The issue is that they are able to respond to the Holy Spirits call. Yes, they are. And that doesn't mean they saved themselves. See what I'm getting at?

My point is that no one can save themselves.

We are all sinners. We aren't all called evil. Evil is a condition of the heart.
Yes, all can respond. They do so out of the condition of their hearts. One will produce a harvest while the other will not. It depends upon what type of soil the seed falls on.

Again you are presupposing that the condition of the heart (evil) as meaning moral incapacity, this is never established in scripture