There will be no Rapture!!!

Heavens can refer to the sky and the earth’s atmosphere, making it the “first heaven” (Deuteronomy 11:11; Psalm 104:12; Isaiah 55:10). It can also refer to outer space, where the stars and planets are—the “second heaven” (Psalm 8:3; Isaiah 13:10). And it can refer to God’s dwelling place, which is beyond the other “heavens,” a place known as the “third heaven” (Psalm 33:13–14; Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 6:9; Hebrews 7:26; Revelation 11:19). When Paul says that he went to the third heaven, he means that he went to the place where God dwells.

I take it that Satan was ejected from the "third heaven", where God's throne resides.
But I would not want to be dogmatic about this. For me, it makes little difference one way or another.

Agree!

I think this member makes a good argument against the great vanishing.
@Angela53510 states:


This is where not knowing Koine Greek messes up your theology. In fact:

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess 4:17

The key issues, are:

1. that heaven is not mentioned in the verse! ἀέρα or "air" is the air around us. Ouranos is heaven, and does not appear in this verse! So, we are not going to heaven with Jesus.

2. "secret" is not found in this verse. There can be no "secret." In fact, elsewhere it says of the Second Coming of Jesus:

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen." Rev 1:7

This is the Second Coming talked about in 1 Thess 4:17. Every eye will see him! Nothing secret at all!

3. ἀπάντησιν. This word means "to meet" as your translation correctly says. However, the translation neglects to mention the rest of the meaning. Cleon Roger's Jr & Cleon Rodgers III scholarly book, "The
New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament," (which we used in Baptist seminary), gives the complete definition. It refers to the return of a conquering hero. The people go out to meet the victor and accompany him back to their city. This word is found only in 3 places on the NT. In Acts 28:15, it refers to the people going out "to meet" Paul, and then return with him to the Rome.

In 1 Thess 4:17, it refers to Christians meeting Jesus in the air around us, and then returning to earth for Judgement Day. Heaven is not where we go, apantesin means the people "meet and return" to earth with Jesus. Paul used that word on purpose, just as Luke did in Acts 28:15.

4. Finally this supposed rapture! Only one Bible contains a transliteration of "harpazo" into rapture and that is Jerome's Latin Bible, translated in the 4th century AD. So 400 years after Christ, and Jerome did not know Koine Greek well, as it was starting to die out. Harpazo means "to snatch, grab!" This refers to the suddenness of the Second Coming! Jerome transliterated, not translated harpazo to sound like a similar Latin word. That being rapiere, which means "abduct" according to one source. Will Jesus abduct us? Not likely. But he will suddenly grab us, so we can meet him in the air.

Further, hermeneutics or Bible interpretation requires we do not make a major doctrine out of one verse in the Bible. There must be many references, for anything to become a pivotal doctrine, which rapture does not have. In fact, the word "Rapture" does not appear in the Bible at all, but the Second Coming does!

1 Thess 4:17 is a reference to Jesus Christ's Second Coming! We are waiting for Jesus to return, not a nonsensical "secret rapture to heaven." Not one of those words is present in 1 Thess 4:17, in Koine Greek or English!

excellent post👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

The idea of being “left behind” is all based in christian fiction. they made tons of christian movies in the 80’s with the anti christ and guillitines, christians running around in the dead of night foraging for food 🤦🏼‍♂️

excellent post👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

The idea of being “left behind” is all based in christian fiction. they made tons of christian movies in the 80’s with the anti christ and guillitines, christians running around in the dead of night foraging for food 🤦🏼‍♂️

excellent post👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Hmmmmm..... no problem. Just need the right way to spin to deny it.
144,000 Jews!

Go ahead and deny that.

excellent post👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

The idea of being “left behind” is all based in christian fiction. they made tons of christian movies in the 80’s with the anti christ and guillitines, christians running around in the dead of night foraging for food 🤦🏼‍♂️

He thinks Gentiles are "the tribes of Israel"




So where the text states, "blindness [/a hardening] IN PART is happened TO ISRAEL," he inserts "GENTILES" where that word "Israel" is placed, instead. [So throughout Romans 9-11, he sees the words "Gentiles" and "Israel" as interchangeable, somehow ]

No beliver is "left behind". None. Zero.

You are merchandising myths and cultural legends.

No beliver is "left behind". None. Zero.

No. Don't blame Yah for your subjective lines of parallel that you have drawing from your own imagination. The contextual definitions shown in the imagery of the olive trees in those other contexts is not absolutely parallel with Revelation contexts. Slaughtering context in order to remove it from limiting your contrived application of the images is nothing more than inconsistency at best.

MM

I don't know if your avatar name indicates you're a real Israelite, but I sure am, and what you're saying here is baseless. Back it up with something of substance, if you can.

MM

You do know Jesus said the Witnesses are Olive Trees and Lampstands?

That's a whole lotta people. More than just Jews, but Jews and Gentiles following Jesus.

If you knew the Bible like you claim God Himself called the Jews Olive Trees. So no using God but rather QUOTING God. Plus, Paul used the same reference from GOD for the Gentiles. It's 100% fact and Bible. No matter what you say it's in the Bible as I presented it.

in all honesty, ive learned more about the character and will of God analyzing prophetic fulfillment in hindsight. In regards to the “rapture” doctrine and the idea of being “left behind” with a 7 year tribulation and christians being rounded up for the guilletine is non sense.

I love how 1 Thess chapter 4 begins with a question whether people alive would ever see their dead loved ones again and Paul tells them YES, they will rise first and those alive will meet them.

And we know Paul was merely answering their question because in chapter 5 he tells these SAME PEOPLE: 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Paul is clearly talking about the Second Coming which has ""always"" been known as the Day of the Lord.

Paul even tells these people they are fully away this day comes like a thief in the night.


He verifies Jesus Matthew 24.


So once again, there is NO SCRIPTURE REFERENCE to a "secret coming."

Nope. Wrong!

You should do more study, because His coming as a thief in the night is a phenomenon that applies ONLY to those who are not watching. Those who are watching will know the hour of His coming so that they are not taken by it in the surprise of a "thief in the night."

MM

There is no such imagination as “gentiles” however there are the “nations” where the gospel was taken before the temple was destroyed in 70ad. The same “nations” all descending from the loins of Jacob of whom over the last 2000 years have been established to the north and south, to the east and west as the blessed of God seperating them from the heathen nations that God has set his face against. The judeans who received the gospel prior to the destruction of the temple became christians fleeing the city as the roman armies surrounded jeruselem as described by Jesus. These christians journeyed out from Judea and into the same “nations” as their Israelite. brethren .

I hate to be a stickler regarding the usage of the words “jew and gentile” but as long as we continue to use them the blindness of the “Israel of God” will continue.

Let's see then.

Paul is asked: about those loved ones who are deceased.

Here's his response:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

Notice how he explains we will be together again:
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord

NOW Remember, in reality, there ARE NO CHAPTERS so this is ONE THOUGHT:
3 Verses after 4:17 : 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Paul connects Verses 16 and 17 to Verse 2.

The Day of the LORD is always the Second Coming.

Paul connects the Thief in the Night to BELIEVERS in verse2 100%

Paul is writing to the CHURCH in Thessalonica not to Sinners!

Paul is TELLING the CHURCH in Thessalonica they are fully aware the day of the LORD comes like a thief in the Night.

Paul even says in verse 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

He's saying Believers should not be surprised when Jesus comes.

Paul is absolutely talking to CHRISTIANS to be SOBER and watchful so the Day of the Lord doesn't come as a surprise.