Please help me to respond to some of my non-trinitarian friends

Greetings brothers and sisters. I have some Christian friends that are not trinitarians. What is the Trinity?
one God in three persons (one being or essence with 3 personalities)
co-eternal (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always existed)
co-essential (they share the same essence)
co-equal (the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God)
eternal generation (the begotten Son has always existed)
dual natures of Christ in one person (divine and human)
in their union each nature preserves its distinct attributes (Jesus is all human and all God)
two wills in Christ- divine and human- never conflict
One of my non-trinitarian friends says that Jesus was a Jew who believed the same about God as other Jews. First century Jews did not believe in the Trinity. Their Scriptures proclaimed radical monotheism. The reason why the Jews do not believe in the Trinity, then or now, is because of the Jewish Scriptures that proclaim monotheism. Deut 4: 35, 39 To you it was shown so that you would acknowledge that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. So acknowledge today and take to heart that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. In Mark 12: 28-34 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all commandments is: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth; for there is one God, and there is no other but he. And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. Jesus confessed the Shema, the core creed of Judaism, without altering it at all. How would the Jewish scribe have heard this? As a Trinitarian creed? If the Trinity was true, Jesus would have corrected or altered the Shema. Instead, he praises the scribe.
Please help me to respond to him.

The Shema (in the original language) supports the single plurality (Trinity).

Shema Yisrael, YHVH/(Adonai) Eloheinu YHVH/(Adonai) Echad.

In English Eloheinu is translated as God incorrectly since Eloheinu is plural. A more correct translation would actually be:

Hear oh Isreal, the Lord our Gods is one God.

Why are you worried?

Father, Son and the Holy spirit.

GOD came to us Through His only begotten Son, giving the Holy Spirit without measure to Him.


The unbelievers did not accept the above as Truth and rejected the New Covenant … choosing to remain under the old Covenant. Setting about to discredit with falsehood.

In our age we have so much information at our fingertips… but the plain and simple Is Father and Son are One..

John 10 kjv

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


The Lord explains it best Himself^^

It's as if these people think the Jewish view is the most correct,, Most accurate or the point of view Christians should adopt.. Do these people ever realize that the overwealming majority of the Jews in the times of Jesus failed to recognize their Messiah because of their FALSE view of God and the promised Messiah??

There are so many points in the Bible pointing toward Jesus being One with God that one hardly knows where to start..

As for the incident you bring forth Mark 12: 28-34 Yes the Father and the Word and the Holy Spirit are One.. So The LORD Jesus proclaiming the LORD as One is not Jesus denying the trinity..

Even in the OT it shows that the One can be two united as one..

The following passage deals with the LORD Visiting Abraham as He was heading to bring judgement upon Sodom and Gomorrah.. Abraham had just shared food with the LORD and the two angels with Him who where all in human form.. The LORD ate the food Abraham had offered Him and was moving to go to Sodom..

(Genesis 18:20-25) "And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; {21} I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. {22} And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. {23} ¶ And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? {24} Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? {25} That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Abraham was clearly talking to God because he declared the LORD he was talking to, to be the judge of all the earth.. That title can only be said to the God of Abraham not some mere mortal.. Later on we read in the same incident:: Pay very close attention to what these verses actually say::

(Genesis 19:23-25) "¶ The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. {24} Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; {25} And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground."

Note how there where two LORDs The LORD on earth who went to Sodom to inspect it.. And The LORD in Heaven.. So the LORD on the ground rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from The LORD in Heaven.. Count 1+1 = 2 who are One in the OT..

That's just one example there are more..

There is so much mystery but the Truth is simple.

Which denomination do you adhere to?

Since your Jewish friend uses the New Testament to refute the Trinity, point him to the seven "I am" claims of Jesus in the Gospel of John where Jesus uses them to identify himself with the burning-bush "I Am" who appeared to Moses in Exodus 3 and 4 and to his reference to Psalm 23 when he claims to be the Good Shepherd.

There is no need to get into a lengthy discussion with your friends to "prove" the truth of the Trinity.

Just go to ONE VERSE in the Bible -- Matthew 28:19 --and ask one of them to read it, and then explain what it means.

If they choose to reject the true meaning, that is a deliberate choice to believe false doctrines. Which means that you simply walk away. And all that talk about the Shema is baloney. The first verse of the Bible says -- "In the beginning ELOMHIM created the heavens and the earth". "Elohim" is a uni-plural word, therefore Genesis 1 also says that God said "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness". That is what is written in the Hebrew text.

This may shock you, but it is not our job to make one see the concept of the Trinity. The word is not in the Bible. It is a theological term which I do believe is biblical and clearly seen. pray for them . Our intellect gets in the way and is limted.

Well just simply the trinity doctrine holds that there is one God. So there is no conflict then with the shema scripture nor a need to alter it since the trinity doctrine also is worded in such a way that it expresses the belief in one God.. Since Jesus is the Word of God he is found throughout the Old Testament whenever God speaks or whenever it is said "the word of God came to (insert prophet)". The first three verses of the Bible would probably serve your counterargument best since they are the foundation of even the Torah which indicates that the Torah and the entire Bible are built on the trinity doctrine. Even better for you then is it is the same scribes that wrote the shema. So if they deny then the trinity doctrine which is clearly expressed in the very first foundational verses of the Torah then they are also denying the shema since their author is the same and the scribes and the one dictating to them (Moses) are speaking about the same God.

Genesis 1:1-3

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Fart around with concepts like "persons" and "essence" if you want; but in my opinion there's far more substantial things to talk about.

That is such a profound and appropriate comment. NOT!

God is three persons - in unity, equal and of the same mind. In function -

Divine Procession.

Godhead - At the source there is the provision by the whole Godhead,

Father - with the initial movement of the Father;

Son - the administration of the Son;

Holy Spirit - and the direct agency of the Holy Spirit.

In the body of a piano there are 3 strings that need tuning to make one single note on the keyboard.

Also, God is love, if God was just one how could He love except Himself?

Wasn't meant to be profound. I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at theological concepts of the Godhead; but as you said yourself; it's not your job to make one see it; moreover, I haven't seen a substantial difference in the lives those who hold one position over the other. A better "response" than endless philosophical discourse, is the living epistle of your life.

Is that better?

I remember how we used to sing together the Shema during the Saturday morning services in synagogue.
We all sang it. It made me feel very good to sing it. But, it was not really well understood by us. It was like
the Catholic mass done in Latin.

......... Hear O Israel! The Lord (one) our God (two) the Lord (three) is ONE! (the trinity is there)

The Trinity is God's answer to God knowing that without Him being a Trinity we could not see (perceive) nor be able to comprehend God. For infinite God, without providing a means for us to know Him in a manner we can be comprehending Him? That God would always transcend our human capacity for discerning and perceiving what is beyond our human ability to see. God must bring Himself down to our level, to let us know He is beyond our level!

John 1:18 in the NIV tells us one function of the Son towards man.



The key here is .. "has made him known." Why does it say that?

Years ago Pastor Ralph G. Braun once showed me from the Greek text what "Jesus has made him known" is saying.
He told me that the Greek word used for Jesus making God known to us, is the same Greek word that is commanded
of pastors to exegete the Word for their hearers!

In other words. Like a good pastor must exegete Scripture we can not understand on our own, the Son must "translate and interpret" God for us what would be the naturally unknowable to us. To present God to us in a such a way that we can grasp and comprehend from within our own ability to think.

That is why John 1:18 in the Amplified (classic edition) translation ended up reading as so...


As we can read in the Amplified Bible in John 1:18, Jesus is God's designated translator and interpreter of Himself to man.

Why?

Because Jesus Christ is both fully man and fully God, being able to fully relate one to the other.
Unlike us He fully knows God as much as any man possibly could ever wish to be knowing God. For Jesus is the embodiment of all the God that is knowable to man! And.. To be knowing God for forever and forever!

As far as being both fully man and fully God?

As God, Jesus knows everything about man, and knows all that man needs to know about God.
And, most importantly.. how man needs to know God... progressively, by growing in knowledge and understanding!

Unlike us, God is infinite and without limit and all knowing. In contrast, man must be always be learning from God, about God, for forever and ever, never running out of something to learn! Our learning of God, from God, will never end!



Note! The Shema has contains within... Lord + God + Lord. = One.

I hope this helps someone.

Grace and peace......

I've never really liked the term 'persons' because it makes me think of entirely separate beings. But there aren't alot of better terms to describe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are personal and distinct. My pastor likes 'persona'.

I suggest we do not get bogged down with such a detail....

More important than anything?
Would be to understand why God in His wisdom always was to be a Trinity for the sake of knowing He was to create angels and men.

The Son reveals God to us as a man revealing God.

And... The Holy Spirit was revealing God to angels before man was ever created.

Now.. here's the kicker.

As Jesus came as a man to mankind?...
Revealing God by means of being as a man?

Prior to man's creation?...
The Angel of Jehovah appeared to the angels, as an angel being God to the angels!

The Angel of Jehovah could have told all the angels...
"To see me, is to see the Father!"
Just as Jesus told us to see Him is to see the Father!

When that was shown to me?
The mystery of who the Angel of Jehovah was came to a halt.

And, its why from the time of the Incarnation the Angel of Jehovah is no longer mentioned in appearing.

Keep in mind. Jesus is fully man and fully God.
The Angel of Jehovah was fully angel and fully God.

In the OT Jesus could not have been the ANGEL OF JEHOVAH because Jesus is soul in union with Deity.
Angels are spirits... not souls!

That is why it was the Holy Spirit being manifested in angelic-bodily form was being God.. Being as an angel!
Just like Jesus was being in human form, being God the Son; being God in human form!

No longer is God being alone with only angels.
For, man has been now created!
Also , God now tells us that it is the time that all angels are to worship the Son!
No longer to be under the Angel of Jehovah who appeared as God in the OT!

Here we go!


A major shift took place once Jesus entered the world!
No longer was their headship to be the Angel of Jehovah!
All now are to have their eyes of Jesus the Son God,, who is God!

The Holy Spirit ceased appearing in angelic bodily form.
Now in invisible form being manifested through the lives of mature believers!

That is why angels today long to look into the preaching and teaching given by men of sound spiritual teaching!
We are the Spirit being manifested in bodily form when we have sound doctrine and fully submitted lives to the Lord!
And... to the alleged spiritual hot shots out there? Jesus warned. Only a few will find it!




Yes! In the OT the Angel of Jehovah was the Holy Spirit being manifested in bodily form - with an angel's body!

That took me a while to have that sink in and to stabilize. But it explains why so many can not explain who the Angel of Jehovah was in the OT. Angels do not have souls. They are spirits!

Jesus being a human soul and Deity in union could not have been an angel!
He would have to cease being as a man to do so!


Grace and peace!

We need a Word of God revival!


.......

the 70 elders who went up the mountain with Moses at Sinai "saw the God of Israel"
- but no one has seen God at any time.

so Who did they see?

it really is not an argument if the unbelieving Jew of the first century did not comprehend that Christ is the visible manifestation of the invisible God. they did not have right doctrine, and rejected God when He came to them. so why would it matter that they did not know what is revealed about Him, since they did not know Him?

you might also show them that Christ in John 3 reveals to Nicodemus the answer to Proverbs 30, what is the name of the Son of God, and Who has descended from and ascended to heaven.

the fact, again, that Jesus teaches the most esteemed and greatest teacher of Torah in all of Israel these things, shows us that what the Jews understood about God in the time He revealed Himself is no litmus test about true doctrine. they had much to learn.

answer:
they saw Jesus Christ the Son.

They saw God as He wanted to appear to them.
Appear to them in a manner they could relate to.

No one see God and live?

We now see God.
Why can we?

We have been crucified with Christ!
We died so He may live in our hearts!