Please help me to respond to some of my non-trinitarian friends

And, some require you wear 3D glasses for those who are double minded...

I did. In it He makes the case for 3, not just 2.

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And, everybody reading along knows what you guys are talking about.....

Its as easy as 1,2,3.

OP's friend has some weird metaphysical semantics which would probably take an hour of in-person conversation to sort out; which seems to happen a lot when people try to explain the nature of God in their own words.

Jay Smith is pretty cool, by the way: his work is an absolute wrecking ball against Islam, and everyone should be glad for that. His group really brings out the evidence.

This one is an example:

My friend says that you don't have the correct understanding of Oneness.
John 17: 20-23 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Jesus is praying to the Father and at the same time is explaining Oneness. How is the Father in Jesus and Jesus in the Father? Jesus is filled with the Holy Spirit of the Father and where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. In Isaiah 63: 9-10, the Holy Spirit is referred to as the "Angel of His presence". It is referred to as an angel because it can be sent. When someone is baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit, he becomes the temple of the Son, who is the temple of the Father ("as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee"). The Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father (the invisible God) can interact with the beings indwelt. Christ is so filled with the Holy Spirit that he is the visible image of the invisible God and is One with the Father because of the portal (Holy Spirit) that connects them. When we get baptized with this portal, both Father and Son enter our beings and we as part of the spiritual body of Christ are welcomed in the Father's family. That is how we are in Christ and in the Father. Together, they perfect us by filling us with divine love so that when every thought and action is motivated by love for God first and everyone else as we love ourselves, we will be obeying the Spirit of the Law as given by Jesus when asked which is the greatest commandment. We become One with the Father and Son when they can access our beings through this portal. Any living being with a mind of his own would have words to explain his thoughts, but the Holy Spirit does not speak his own words. When the Holy Spirit speaks, he is speaking the words of the Father or the Son.

Ok i am getting the strong impression that you made up this ""friend"".. That you have come here to preach against the trinity..

Hello, Adstar. This is decipher replying. Actually, my friend is a family member. His understanding of the trinity does bring some clarity to scripture. He believes that the Father is the One invisible God. He believes that the Son is the image of the invisible God and that the image is not the same as the original because they have their own thoughts and the Son is perfectly obedient to the Father. That is why the Son sits on the Father's right hand. The Father put all of creation under His Son's feet, which means that all authority is given to His Son in our reality, making His Son the Lord and God of all creation. From what I'm understanding, the trinity says that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have their own minds and make up one God. At the same time, the Son obeys the Father and the Holy Spirit does not speak his own words. Also, the Son is the temple of the Father, and we are the temple and body of the Son. When the Holy Spirit talks or reacts, it is the Father and Son that are talking and reacting. The simple fact that the Son obeys and prays to the Father should be enough for one to realize that the Father is the God and Father of the Son. My friend and family member just won't believe and trust the blind allegiance to what the trinity states.
I'll listen to my friend when one on one. During family gatherings, we do not discuss politics. I'll add the trinity to what is not to be discussed during family gatheings and on this thread. Everyone is free to believe what they want, but I'm disappointed that I was not able to disuade my friend. Thanks to all who have attempted to assist.

The Son (the Soul of Jehovah) was never created. Always was God.
The Incarnation was providing a human body for the eternal Soul of Jehovah.

That's a good post.

I think the orthodox-trinitarian would say that "Jehova-the son" and "Jehovah-the father" are distinct persons.... in this case; does "the father" have a soul distinct from the son? I wonder what an orthodox-trinitarian would say about this specifically.

I think classical-oneness would say that "the word" became "the son" in the incarnation; in which case "the son" IS god and IS eternal because he was "the word" before the incarnation... same with "uniquely begotten"- that refers to the incarnation as well... so whenever the oneness say that "the son" had a beginning- they mean in the flesh: not that Jesus isn't eternal, or isn't God.

Wording does not bother me, as long as both are landing on the same target.

The Father is one essence. He is spirit. (John 4:23-24)

The Son is a soul and the same essence as the Father in a unique union.

Why is the Son both Soul and God in union?
The Son is our guide to exploring and getting to know God, by translating God, who transcends our human comprehension, and 'translates' God' for us into "Human speak."


When it says... has made him known? The Amplified Bible digs deeper into the Greek meaning, and renders.. "has made him known," as the following.



Back in the 90s, I was privileged to find myself corresponding with Pastor Ralph G. Braun. He was one of a few pastors who studied and taught the NT from the Greek.

He is the one who showed me about John 1:18 there is a Greek word to show that the Son makes the Father known..
Is the same Greek word commanded of pastors. Commanded as to exegete the Word for us making it understandable
for us on our level of understanding!



John 1:18 - why God is a Trinity. Jesus is our translator and interpreter of God who would otherwise be incomprehensible.


Grace and peace ............

The Son represents man to the Father.
The Holy Spirit represented angels to the Father before man was created.

and.....

The Father makes Himself known to man THROUGH the Son.
And, before man was created?
The Father made Himself known to the angels THROUGH the Holy Spirit as the Angel of Jehovah.

To hear the Son is to hear the Father.
To hear the Holy Spirit would be to hear the Father.
The Son and Holy Spirit are both God.

The Son (the Soul of Jehovah) was never created.
For all things created were through the Son.
And, time is a creation of God!

The Son (Soul of Jehovah) was uniquely begotten by the Father before time existed.
Where there is no time? There can be no beginnings.
Therefore, the Son being uniquely begotten had no beginning.

grace and peace!

According to my friend, Christ is the visible image of the invisible God because Christ is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit, which means that the Father is present in Christ's being. The Son is the temple of the Father, and that is how the Father operates in our reality and how the Son makes the Father known. The Son existed before he became Jesus. What does "the only begotten Son" mean?

Not knowing anything about scripture, and having sung Jesus loves me from summer bible school I cried out to God asking him how could he be fair? Many nights were spent in tears asking the same question over and over. God answered by overwhelming me with his goodness. Then, being confused about Jesus and wondering who I should be praying to, he answered, by saying we are the same. I heard no speech and saw nothing, but since that time I have had perfect peace.

That was 64 years ago, and nothing like that has happened since.

Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We cannot by our own cleverness know God. It is through the heart that God reveals himself.

According to my friend, in John 1: 18 the apostle John writes that no man has seen God at any time. Doesn't it contradict this scripture if Jesus is God, since Jesus was visible before and after his ministry? According to the council of Nicea in 325 AD Jesus was fully man and fully God. Were they wrong?

According to my friend, in John 1: 18 the apostle John writes that no man has seen God at any time. Doesn't it contradict this scripture if Jesus is God, since Jesus was visible before and after his ministry? According to the council of Nicea in 325 AD Jesus was fully man and fully God. Were they wrong?

According to my friend, Christ is the visible image of the invisible God because Christ is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit, which means that the Father is present in Christ's being. The Son is the temple of the Father, and that is how the Father operates in our reality and how the Son makes the Father known. The Son existed before he became Jesus. What does "the only begotten Son" mean?