Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

It's not a question of personal likes or dislikes. The passage in question is problematic on multiple levels, and this has been recognized over the centuries by church fathers and scholars. Some people do actually use their heads for something other than a hat rack, while others are viscerally skilled in making knee jerk reactions.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Mark-16-9-20.html

No doubt that some scholars and so-called church fathers have problems with various things in the Bible, but the manuscripts tell the story that rejection of the fact that Jesus stated what He said, I don't give a rat's petoot what they think because they don't have the original autographs against which to gauge the voracity of that passage, AND it's not true that everything stated in one gospel has to have corroboration in the others. That's a rule card played only when it's convenient.

MM

Like I said some people use their heads for something other than a hat rack. And then there are others like yourself.

There are good reasons why the vast majority of the major translations alert readers that the passage is controversial.

Kings 2 13:5
(And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.

Isaiah 19:20
And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

They do? I checked the NIV, and it says nothing, along with the ESV. Both of those are a couple of the most liberal there is. But, hey, you seem bent upon ad hominem, so it appears that we are through.

MM

As an Israeli, I was taught that the Messiah, according to many Jew's interpretation of who the Messiah would be, they think the Messiah will be a great political figure sent from Yah. To many of them, the "savior" is the man who will set them up in their own kingdom, free from the rule and trampling of the Gentiles, and be Yah's representative upon the earth. They avoid Isaiah 53 and Zechariah 12, not wanting to even come close to any thought that Jesus was the One those references, and others, were speaking about.

MM

And this "savior" or deliverer in the 2Ki passage saved the Children of Israel from their sins or some enemy?

And Isa 19 is prophecy of future destruction and restoration at the end of the age (see vv. 21-25).. Why can't the savior and defender who God sends be the Messiah? The passage is clearly talking about spiritual restoration.

If you had bothered to read the link I sent, you would have learned the reasons why Mk 16:9ff. is problematic. Also, both my NIV and ESV hard copies contain notes in them alerting readers to the questionable authenticity of the passage.

I was responding to Rufus' list of sloppy and technically ambiguous/inaccurate presuppositions, including that there is only one Savior in the universe. The Bible itself speaks of other Saviors. Savior (sOtEr, YaSha). Sloppy language leads to sloppy reasoning leads to unsound conclusions.

No, he didn't. But he was a Savior. You didn't specify one Savior from sins. If you want to build a case for some conclusion, you need to be more rigorous in your argumentation and make sure the that premises you are using to build toward your conclusions are sound. Otherwise, your conclusions will not be sound or convincing..

When you don't address who it is your talking to by way of quote, or at least addressing directly, it's nearly impossible to tell sometimes.

MM

I rebuke you in the name of Jesus our Lord, lies and Blasphamy will not be tolerated any longer. In the name of the father, and the son, and the holy Spirit. Amen

Do not apologize to an enemy of the lord. Do not fear.

Losing salvation under which Gospel:

Before the cross, the salvation Gospel message was repentance and baptism in water.

After the cross, the Gospel message changed, as revealed by Peter:

Acts 2:36-38
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The great mystery revealed to no other man until Christ revealed it to Paul was/is this:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul did not preach the Kingdom Gospel where works were required, as preached by James in chapters one and two.

So, under the Kingdom Gospel, one COULD lose salvation:

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17-18
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:20-22
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Gospel of Grace, on the other hand:

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:27-28
27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So, if one has the faith of which Paul preached, originating from the mystery hidden in God from the creation of the world, that man is sealed unto salvation by Holy Spirit, not having to perform works or works of the Law to be counted righteous. Paul spoke the whole Gospel that applies to us today. The claim that the Gospel is the same all throughout, that is a denial of what the four Gospels themselves record, which never included the preaching of Christ crucified and raised on the third day, especially given that the disciples never once preached Christ crucified in those three years they went about preaching. So, no, the claim of the Gospel being the same all throughout is only a denial of the clear reading of scripture for what it says.

MM

Oh...I thought that since you profess to be a Christian that when talk of "savior" arises your mind would automatically think of the ONE and ONLY who COULD save your soul -- or perhaps even think of these kinds of verses:

Isa 43:11
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
KJV

Hos 13:4
4 "But I am the LORD your God,
[who brought you] out of Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me.
NIV

Acts 4:12
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
NIV

My bad. I should have known better than to make assumptions with people like yourself.

So, now that we both know there is only ONE savior of souls in the universe, what other item on my 8-point list would you like to challenge?

As to our being the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, the thought that we can lose our salvation is rendered seriously flawed:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

How, then, does anyone figure that the Lord would go against His own righteousness, which He has made us who are in Him?

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

There are likely millions of hypotheticals one may dream up in one's imagination as to how bad one can become to lose salvation, but I still am seeking a REAL example. Some have claimed they lost THEIR salvation at some time in the past only to regain it later after "returning" to God, and yet they had only their feelings to rely upon rather than retain in their understanding what it means for Christ to have been made sin FOR US. Doesn't Jonah tell us something? He intentionally tried to run from God, and simply could not get away. When his desperation got so bad that he called upon the ship's crew to throw him overboard in the storm, he knew he was going to drown, for nobody could tread water for hundreds of miles to shore in a storm. Nobody! And yet, the Lord rescued him to see His plan through.

So, I'm still waiting for someone to come along and prove the OP and its warped use of a verse taken from obscurity in order to try and make it into a subjective wrangling for loss of salvation, when in fact the topic of that very verse SCREAMED the concept of REWARD, not salvation! Failure to rightly interpret scripture in accordance to rules OTHER than subjective emphasis and injections of meaning, that is the fodder of Armenianism, not biblical hermeneutics.

Dare we think about how loss of salvation is more akin to originating from a false god, created in the minds filled with feeble faith, that is indeed a god incapable of holding onto those who were ever truly his:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand.

I am of the belief that the One who spoke these words has MORE than enough power to see it through. Those false gods out there who offer no assurances of salvation, they belong to the pagans who dreamed them up in their own minds. I highly encourage those who are of this stripe:

2 Peter 3:14-18
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom [mystery] given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

So, how about it? Are you willing to grow in your knowledge of His word. All you have to do is read it for what it says rather than to etherealize it into oblivion, making it unrecognizable and utterly corrupt, devoid of the meaning of which it speaks. Epistles are not parables that the corrupt can demand can only be understood through THEIR interpretations to you.

1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

All those suckers out there who allegorize everything they want to wrest to their own interpretational model of corruption, they will indeed confuse others, leading them down the road of questioning the very Power of God...the One TRUE God, leading some to the false gods of their imaginations. New Age philosophies have indeed infiltrated into Western Christianity, along with Luciferian dogmas that dominate the doctrinal landscape of the largest denomination(s).

MM

Rebuke away

If you believe your eternity is not secure in christ when you are saved. You will have alot to answer for.. Rebuking me will be the last thing on your mind

wow. Judge not lest ye be judged.

You come in swinging. You must have Satan himself behind you! I look forward to you trying to refute my Gospel of grace.

Those who believe in the loss of salvation for some, you must not have much faith in the power and word of the Lord:

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

I'm not sure what part of that some don't understand, but the absolute statements in the above reference are just that...absolute!

If one claims to be a follower of Christ, and lives wickedly as before, then they were not of the faith unto grace. Claims for faith, and living out a real faith, they are not the same thing.

MM

John preached this:

Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus preached this:

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Given that the Gospel preached at that time, to those people, one could indeed lose his salvation if he did not have and retain his faith, but that is not the case today. Not one place do the Gospels declare the "sealing" of Holy Spirit by grace through faith unto salvation. Instead, the Kingdom program required perseverance unto the end, just as Jesus declared.

Replacement theology has its followers believing that the body of Christ must also persevere, and some even claim that perseverance is divinely bestowed, even though they cannot show it from scripture without injecting into the text their Armenian beliefs. The Gospel of Grace is NOT what Jesus preached, nor was that the preaching of the eleven until after the Kingdom program was placed on hold.

So, there is a place and time for one to lose his salvation, but it's not under the Gospel of Grace. Those who pass into the tribulation on this earth, THEY will be those who will have to persevere unto the end.

MM