Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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Magenta

Magenta

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Romans 9:19-21 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?
 
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Rufus

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PaulThomson said:
You still haven't answered my five questions. Now you are insisting I should answer six questions you asked someone else, while you hide from answering my questions. You are captured by an ideology that has no answers to basic biblical questions, but produces myriads of paragraphs focussed only on rationalising the ideology.


PaulThomson said:
What was the consequence of Adam's sin?
How many people who have died will be raised from the dead?
So, how many people did Jesus save from the first death?
How many will He save also from the second death?
Why does this not make Him the Saviour (from death) of all men, but especially of those who believe?
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My questions are relevant to the passage under discussion. Yours are not.

No matter how you slice it and dice it, Jesus does not save all men from the penalty and power of sin in the distributive sense; therefore, he is not the Savior of all men in the distributive sense either. You can try all the mental gymnastics at your disposal but you're not going to change this fact.
 
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PaulThomson

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Rufus said:
My questions are relevant to the passage under discussion. Yours are not.

No matter how you slice it and dice it, Jesus does not save all men from the penalty and power of sin in the distributive sense; therefore, he is not the Savior of all men in the distributive sense either. You can try all the mental gymnastics at your disposal but you're not going to change this fact.
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Well, everyone dies physically because of Adam's sin, and Jesus raises all the physically dead; so He must have paid the death penalty for all to buy all back from death's grip in order to stand them up bodily before Him for judgment. So, there is that way to slice it and dice it.
 
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Rufus

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PaulThomson said:
Well, everyone dies physically because of Adam's sin, and Jesus raises all the physically dead; so He must have paid the death penalty for all to buy all back from death's grip in order to stand them up bodily before Him for judgment. So, there is that way to slice it and dice it.
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But he didn't pay the death penalty of the wicked. The resurrection does not prove that he did. The reason for the resurrection of the just and unjust is that both groups will exist throughout eternity as human beings which, of course, requires them to have physical bodies.
 
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Rufus

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And one other thing about physical death. Everyone dies physically so that sin will not be perpetuated forever. The great paradox with God's saints is that physical death finally releases them from their flesh (sin nature) and makes them free to love and serve God perfectly in heaven and eventually here on earth. Physical death for a saint is the quintessential act of perfectly dying to himself.
 
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Rufus

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Dan 12:1-2
12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people — everyone whose name is found written in the book — will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
NIV

So....if God is the Savior of all men in the distributive sense, then he is the Savior of all to whom he raises to everlasting life, and he is the Savior of those whom he raises to shame and everlasting contempt. Interesting Savior... :rolleyes: He forgot to save the wicked from his everlasting contempt, did he?
 
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Rufus

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Dan 12:1-2
12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people — everyone whose name is found written in the book — will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
NIV

So....if God is the Savior of all men in the distributive sense, then he is the Savior of all to whom he raises to everlasting life, and he is the Savior of those whom he raises to shame and everlasting contempt. Interesting Savior... :rolleyes: He forgot to save the wicked from his everlasting contempt, did he?
 
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Rufus

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Got a little quiet in here, so it's a good time to present another argument against unlimitefd atonement. I will argue from the "MANY" -- but this time from the "many nations".

"All" is often used in scripture in the limited sense to denote "many". But "many" is never used to denote "all". And this becomes no small problem for those who believe in unlimited atonement because if God's redemptive promises or prophecies pertain to only many nations, then logically there's no way to extract from many nations an a atonement for each and every person on the planet.

First, we have the Abrahamic Covenant itself in which God promised Abraham to make him the [spiritual] father of "many" nations (Gen 17:4-5).

Then we have a messianic prophecy in Isa 52:15 in which the resurrected, exalted Christ will "sprinkle many nations".

Then we have an end times prophecy that states that "many nations" will be joined to the Lord and they will become his people (Zech 2:11).

Since God clearly never intended to save each and every nation in the world, let alone each and every person in it, then why in the world would God send his Son to die for each and every person?
 
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PaulThomson

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Rufus said:
But he didn't pay the death penalty of the wicked. The resurrection does not prove that he did. The reason for the resurrection of the just and unjust is that both groups will exist throughout eternity as human beings which, of course, requires them to have physical bodies.
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If Christ did not need to die for the wicked in order to resurrect them out of death, then He did not need to die for the saints to resurrect them out of death. If Christ needed to die for the saints in order to raise them out of death for glory, then He also needed to die for the wicked to raise them out of death for judgment.
 
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Rufus

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PaulThomson said:
If Christ did not need to die for the wicked in order to resurrect them out of death, then He did not need to die for the saints to resurrect them out of death. If Christ needed to die for the saints in order to raise them out of death for glory, then He also needed to die for the wicked to raise them out of death for judgment.
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He needed to die for elect so that they could be forgiven, justified by having Christ's righteousness imputed to them, freed from the power of sin and eventually from the presence of it. And in order for all this to happen, Christ raised the elect dead spiritually so that they could positively respond to gospel, since dead men kinda have a tough time doing that. The wicked don't experience any of this.
 
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glf

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MerSee said:
for the Unjust/Nonelect/Unsaved whose names are not written in The Book of Life?

Revelation 21:27
There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb
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Jesus died for the sins of the world. Those who repent and obtain faith from Jesus, the author of our faith, are the ones who receive forgiveness.
I think of it like this; Jesus is an infinite being and an infinite atonement is required for forgiveness. So we could describe it thus: Jesus an infinite being times an infinite atonement required for each person times an infinite amount of people equals an infinite sacrifice. Or infinite times infinite times infinite = infinite.
Let me go on to add this thought: Jesus, an infinite being, is able to make an infinite sacrifice. Man, a finite being, cannot perform an infinite sacrifice, so his sacrifice must be for infinity to attain an infinite atonement.

Also, Jesus, when our sins, by the greatest miracle in all eternity, were put upon him, cried out, "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me." The curse of disobedience to the law is to be cut off from the Lord and we're told in scripture that Jesus took our deserved curse upon himself for our sakes. Just bore the full wrath of the Lord and so too did the Father and the Holy Spirit suffer being cut off from Jesus for the first and only time in all eternity, in order to offer forgiveness to whosoever will answer the call to repentance. Thank the Lord and praise Jesus both now and forever and ever for his indescribable gift of love!
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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glf said:
Jesus died for the sins of the world. Those who repent and obtain faith from Jesus, the author of our faith, are the ones who receive forgiveness.
I think of it like this; Jesus is an infinite being and an infinite atonement is required for forgiveness. So we could describe it thus: Jesus an infinite being times an infinite atonement required for each person times an infinite amount of people equals an infinite sacrifice. Or infinite times infinite times infinite = infinite.
Let me go on to add this thought: Jesus, an infinite being, is able to make an infinite sacrifice. Man, a finite being, cannot perform an infinite sacrifice, so his sacrifice must be for infinity to attain an infinite atonement.

Also, Jesus, when our sins, by the greatest miracle in all eternity, were put upon him, cried out, "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me." The curse of disobedience to the law is to be cut off from the Lord and we're told in scripture that Jesus took our deserved curse upon himself for our sakes. Just bore the full wrath of the Lord and so too did the Father and the Holy Spirit suffer being cut off from Jesus for the first and only time in all eternity, in order to offer forgiveness to whosoever will answer the call to repentance. Thank the Lord and praise Jesus both now and forever and ever for his indescribable gift of love!
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So...there are people in hell whose sins are paid for?
 
Genez

Genez

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MerSee said:
Jesus died on the cross for the just/elect/saved whose names are written in The book of life.
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Them, too. And, also.....

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours ​
but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2​


Everyone's sins were paid for. For the issue in salvation rests solely on what one thinks of Jesus.
Our sins act only as evidence as to why he needed to die on the Cross.

No one who will be condemned to the Lake of Fire will have his sins mentioned. They will be judged according to their works.
Not according to their sins. Jesus already took that penalty upon Himself as He hung on the Cross.

Here ....

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. ​
And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged ​
according to their works, by the things which were written in the books." Rev 20:12​

Note!
​
And the dead were judged according to their works!​

Not according to their sins!
Their sins will not be mentioned!

The Lake of Fire is not punishment for one's sins.
Its for the rejection of Jesus Christ!

So, yes!
Jesus died on the cross for the just/elect/saved whose names are written in The book of life.
And, for everyone who will not have their name written!


He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, ​
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2​



It always helps to know what took place on the Cross.
 
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glf

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glf said:
Only if they responded to the Lord's offer of forgiveness when called...
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People in the lake of fire will be those who did not respond to the Lord's call with a godly sorrow and with repentance.
 
Genez

Genez

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Cameron143 said:
So...there are people in hell whose sins are paid for?
Click to expand...
No one is going to hell for their sins.


And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. ​
And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged ​
according to their works, by the things which were written in the books." Rev 20:12​

All their works will be searched through. One work alone will not be found which will condemn them.


Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son ​
of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” ​
​
John 6:27-29​
​
It becomes so simple once someone is able to point it out for us...

grace and peace ..............
 
G

glf

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Genez said:
No one is going to hell for their sins.


And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. ​
And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged ​
according to their works, by the things which were written in the books." Rev 20:12​

All their works will be searched through. One work alone will not be found which will condemn them.

​
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son ​
of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”​
​
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”​
​
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” ​
​
John 6:27-29​
​
It becomes so simple once someone is able to point it out for us...

grace and peace ..............
Click to expand...


Heb 10: 1-4:
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 9: 13-15:
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

1 Jn 5: 16-17:
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
 
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