The rapture? The comimg of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Matthew 24:29-31.

Same event, same language, and oh look, after the tribulation of those days.

Im not too concerned with the "tribulation" anyways as the great tribulation for the jews happened nearly 2000 years ago.

I can agree, only because neither Matthew 24 nor Luke 17 are covering the Subject of "our Rapture" AT ALL.






[In those passages, Jesus is covering the Subject of His (what we call) "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" (FOR the *earthly* MK age) and the specific, future, LIMITED time-period (Trib yrs) which immediately precedes and LEADS UP to THAT; NOWHERE in either of those two passages / chpts does Jesus cover the Subject of "our Rapture [/SNATCH] ...IN THE AIR"--He was covering a whole 'nuther matter, there]

Yes it is in your Bible ---you just are confused about it -----

Jesus will have actually come 3 times by the end of the Tribulation -----

Number 1 -----
He was here already in the Flesh --and had to shed His Blood to cover sin for good and die and be resurrected so He could defeat eternal death and bring back eternal life for all who believe in what He accomplisher and accept Him as their Lord and Saviour so the Holy Spirit could come and indwell us to make us Heaven bound ------

This was the only thing that had to take place so Jesus could Rapture His Church -----as before He came No one was heaven ready ---the wages of Sin was eternal death ---Hell ---all of us were going there --Sin had to be taken out for good and Jesus had to defeat Death so we could have eternal life -----NO Sin could enter heaven we were all doomed to eternal death ----

Now all the Saints could be taken directly to Heaven ----

Number 2 -----the Rapture
Jesus then comes in a Cloud and there is a shout and command from the angels and a blast of the trumpet --so He comes with a bang ------Who is Raptured first -----the dead in Christ ---so dead Saints go first --the live Saints go next ------see Scripture below

Note verse 14 ----as that is what had to happen for the rapture to take place ------

there is no other sign that needs to happen for Jesus to rapture His Church ---he can now raise the dead Saints --------cause He defeated Death ------

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [as in fact He did], even so God [in this same way—by raising them from the dead] will bring with Him those [believers] who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the [a]archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.


17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Amplified Bible
Those Who Died in Christ
13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, believers, about those who are asleep [in death], so that you will not grieve [for them] as the others do who have no hope [beyond this present life].

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [as in fact He did], even so God [in this same way—by raising them from the dead] will bring with Him those [believers] who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death].

16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the [a]archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!

18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died]

The 7 year tribulation happens after the Rapture --------

Number 3 ----The 2ND Coming -------
Jesus comes Secretly no one knows the Day or Hour ---there is no fan fare --no knowing - and He comes back with all His Saints to fight Satan ---scripture here ---

So if the Saints are here for the Tribulation then He can't bring them with Him as they would be still here ----

ZECHARIAH 14:3-5

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst of it toward the east, and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you.

1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 (Paul)
13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

JUDE 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against them.


The rapture and the 2nd Coming are 2 separate Events ------one comes with a fan fare and one comes secretly -----

That's because the "secret rapture doctrine" was Given By Christ [ From Heaven ] to Paul,
In "The Revelation Of The Mystery [ Which Means Secret ]" For The Body Of Christ, Never
Being Revealed before Paul, and Must Always Be:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

ie: From Prophecy, for Israel, on the earth.

Thus, in God's Other "Separate and Distinct Program" it 'contradicts' nothing. Amen.
Amen. And they are Not going anywhere except into the minds of diligent students of The
Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, eh?:

God's Great [ Pre-Trib ] GRACE Departure!
+
Biblically "Concise Condensed": Evidence Of A Pre-Tribulational Rapture Of The Church!
(K Lawson)

Amen.

Bingo.
Well said

Explain how one taken/left is not the rapture.
Then what you are speculating in Luke 17.

Re read it
Matthew 24 says AFTER THE TRIB.
Now you got that part right.
But completely missed the rest of the verse.
Angel gather FROM HEAVEN.
AHEM,
IN the Rapture, Jesus gathers from earth.
1 thes 4 is used equally by both sides , but postribbers OMIT ALL SISTER VERSES.
TOTALLY OMITTED.

So we are still waiting for a postrib rapture verse

Strange how you guys will be challenged biblically, to support your doctrine,then you guys post verses supporting pretrib rapture .
Are you aware your doctrine is not biblically supported?

Now remember guys we are looking for at least 1 verse supporting a postrib rapture.

A man leaves earth in grace and love floating solo in a time of peace, commerce and normal life addressing only his followers.

The angels were so mistaken IN THEIR DESCRIPTION under your doctrine.

NONE OF THE "LIKE MANNER" OF ACTS 1 FITS YOUR THEORY.
ABSOLUTELY WRONG, AND TOTALLY MISPLACED AND REFRAMED FOR SOME WEIRD REASON.

It's a no-brainer from the scriptures as long as you rightly divide the word of truth. Why you would think the Lord will cause the body of Christ to be subjected to His wrath poured out upon this world in the tribulation, I have no idea, for that would cause those who are alive at the start would lose the sealing of Holy Spirit, and therefore be subject to having to endure unto the end so long as they didn't take the mark.

Your doubts about all this is strange to say the least.

MM

I did so in an earlier post, either in this thread or the other one... but I'll try again here:


--where Matthew 24:39 says, "And THEY knew not until the flood came, and took THEM all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"... the "THEY / THEM" who "KNEW NOT UNTIL" was not Noah (he KNEW! and he "knew" LONG BEFORE)... the "THEY / THEM" who "KNEW NOT UNTIL" was those who PERISHED in the flood judgment ("took them all [G537] away" in JUDGMENT);


--ALL "Son of man COMETH / COMING / SHALL COME / etc" passages (like the verse ^ above also) speak to the matter of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (His *earthly* MK-age designation); Verses 37, 39, 44 use this phrase, as well as verse 30;


--Matthew 24:42-51 (same context) PARALLELS the context of Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48, where v.36 states "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom")... THEN "the meal [G347--same word used in Matt8:11 and parallel, re: MK age]"... which is the SAME SEQUENCE we read of elsewhere (Rev19:7 distinct from Rev19:9);


--Matthew 24's wording of "AS the days of Noah were, SO SHALL ALSO the coming of the Son of man be"--We can COMPARE *parallel language* used in both Daniel 2:35c [His Second Coming TO THE EARTH] / Gen9:1 both of which SAY: "[actively] FILL / FILLED the [whole] EARTH" (recall, I've stated that the "still-living saints" at the END of the Trib yrs will ENTER the MK age IN THEIR MORTAL BODIES--as the ONLY ones with the capacity of reproducing / bearing children--[ONLY "saints / believers" will be GRANTED ENTRANCE to the MK age--NO "UNbelievers" will ENTER it!]); At the END of the MK age, it can say (as it does), "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea" (LOTSA people!)
... "one taken" is taken away IN JUDGMENT (just as in Noah's day); "one left" is LEFT on the earth, IN MORTAL BODIES, to FILL the earth (just as in Noah's day);


--the disciples' question of Jesus (in Matt24:3), re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]," was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (and they already knew of His previous words to that, about "the age [SINGULAR] TO COME" which they RIGHTLY UNDERSTOOD to mean [what we call] the *earthly* MK age); Jesus' RESPONSE (in TWO chpts--Mt24-25) pertains to THAT (TRIB [unfolding upon the EARTH]... SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH... EARTHLY MK AGE); Up to and INCLUDING His Olivet Discourse, He had NOT YET spoken ANYTHING about "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... but all about His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (which will commence upon His RETURN *there* / to the EARTH);



--[there was ANOTHER pertinent point I was going to put... but I can't recall at the moment... Perhaps this is sufficient for now... lol. But this post is in addition to what I've already written on this Subject earlier in one of these two threads...]








From what I can tell of your posts, you have UNBELIEVERS *entering* the MK age (which Scripture itself shows otherwise--in numerous passages...)

^ And by the way,


With all your talk of "50% taken / 50% left"... are you saying that "8 ppl" went in the ARK... so therefore (according to your reasoning) "8 ppl" PERISHED in the FLOOD??

(This doesn't make sense to me... )



____________


The "Partial Rapture Theory" is not biblical... Recall, Paul (when referencing this) said, "we shall not all sleep, but we SHALL ALL BE CHANGED in a moment..." (and recall, he was WRITING TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS [/CHRIST'S] BODY" of whom the ones in chpt 3 [vv.1-4] ARE INCLUDED!)

No it doesn't. It promises unbelievers will be in the MK...it's the entire purpose of that time period. Rev 19:15, 20:4 (the nations being ruled over for a thousand years)

"Then shall the King (Rev19:16 / 17:14 / say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM [APO (not "BEFORE [PRO]" as used elsewhere with this phrase)] the foundation of the world"

[again, COMPARE the wording in this SECTION, esp. v.31, to that of Matt19:28! re: the MK age]


--This is the SEPARATION judgment pertaining to "THE NATIONS"; the "SHEEP" of the nations will be GRANTED ENTRANCE INTO the MK age in this passage (because they themselves AIDED / BLESSED "the least of these My brethren" [vv.40,45--the believing remnant of Israel who will be being gravely persecuted] DURING the TRIB YEARS); Recall the "BLESS" / "CURSE" passages from the OT and what they pertain to;


--This "BLESSED" passage ^ CORRESPONDS to about 8 OTHER "BLESSED" passages speaking to the SAME point-in-time (and circumstances), i.e. their ENTRANCE INTO the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (after having responded to the message having gone forth IN THAT TIME PERIOD: Matthew 24:14 / 26:13 "this gospel OF THE KINGDOM";


--the time-period (of very lengthy duration) known as "the Day of the Lord"... consists of [BOTH] "a period of time of JUDGMENTs [i.e. the Trib], followed by a period of time of BLESSING [i.e. the MK age]"--ALL OF THAT is what is known AS "the Day of the Lord" (it is NOT merely "a singular 24-hr day," nor does its ARRIVAL point in time commence at His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19, but 7 YEARS PRIOR TO THAT POINT, at the FIRST SEAL aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3!]"--the first one of those that Jesus had LISTED in His reference to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]";


--the disciples' question to Jesus (Matt24:3--and His response of TWO CHPTS) was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (when the angels will "REAP")... and Matt13:24 of that passage (their Q was BASED on) speaks of "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth]," another term for "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age"--Matthew 13 is another passage showing the "STILL-LIVING" persons (at the time of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH) showing just who it is who will be granted ENTRANCE INTO the MK age ("the age [SINGULAR] TO COME" that the PREVIOUS chpt Jesus had spoken of, and they well-understood WHAT it is [tho not its TIMING]);





What many have done is to [incorrectly] RELOCATE many of these passages to the GWTj time-slot (AFTER the 1000 yrs), but that is NOT what these are speaking to. The reason they do this, is because of a FAULTY understanding of the phrase "IN the LAST DAY" (see Hosea 5:14-6:3; see Job19:25-27 for the "WHEN" of what Job knew he'd be resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)]; etc)

--It is NOT referring to the "last" SINGULAR 24-HOUR DAY kind of "day," but the LAST MILLENNIUM (the 7th and "LAST")--ALL "saints" will have been "resurrected" IN TIME FOR THIS (see again Matt8:11--a reference to the MK age);

--Where Scripture says, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad," this refers to the [yet future] Millennial Kingdom age ['DAY'] (Matt8:11 again [note: WITH THE "NATIONS"... shall "G347" in "the kingdom OF THE heavenS"--the earthly MK age]);

--Where Scripture says in Ex31:13,17 says that the "SEVENTH DAY / SABBATH" is "A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever," it is speaking to the MK age [7th Millennium]; and Heb4:9's "SABBATISMOS" speaks also to this. (So it will be "the believing remnant of Israel" [not US] who, DURING the TRIB years, will be "INVITING" the "NATIONS" *TO* it/the MK age--those who accept that invitation will be "BLESSED" to ENTER the MK-age)

... and way too many other passages to name here...





[a thorough study of the CHRONOLOGY ISSUES is of great help in this matter; Many are confused about it]

That is not the MK.

Yes it is.

COMPARE verse 31's wording (for example) to that of Matthew 19:28!

--"the 12" have been by Jesus that they "will sit on 12 thrones, judgING [in an ONGOING sense] the 12 tribes of Israel" (THAT's IN the promised AND PROPHESIED (OT prophecies) EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age);








This is ALSO why we see Peter (speaking to "ye men OF ISRAEL") in Acts 3, saying in 3:21, "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."

(...despite the "Amill-teachings" [and other Covenant Theology proponents] saying that ALL OT PROPHECY was "fulfilled" in His FIRST ADVENT)

Nope, that is about judgment day, the GWTJ and the age of eternity. The MK is a thousand years before that and as I showed, has unsaved nations that are ruled over. If none are there, who are ruled over? Your position makes no sense to what Rev 19-20 says.

For one thing, Matthew 25:31-34 (and its context) is about the "STILL-LIVING [of the] nations" at the time-slot being referenced
(same for Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 [meaning, re: the "STILL-LIVING" persons], as I mentioned being the passage the disciples BASED their Q of Him and He's RESPONDING in these 2 chpts here);

--NO ONE is being "resurrected" here, as IS the case at the GWTj time-slot (see Rev20:12a,13a,b "the DEAD"... "[gave up] the DEAD"... "[delivered up] the DEAD"...--of course, as that's why it's referred to by Jesus as "resurrection of judgment / damnation" Jn5:29 [because they in Rev20:11-15 GWTj are shown as "to stand again [G386]" after having previously DIED / been "DEAD"--"I saw THE DEAD, small and great, STAND before God..."]);


... see the difference?






["the REST of the DEAD lived not again UNTIL the thousand years were concluded" 20:5a (THIS is IN CONTRAST TO the "saints" that were BEHEADED / MARTYRED [2nd Half of Trib] and resurrected, in v.4b)]

There WILL be those BORN in / during the MK age (and they are not "BORN automatically RIGHTEOUS"--These will be the only ones susceptible to "DEATH" [which will still exist in the MK age, but it will be much more RARE and reserved only for the rebellious]);
But the only mortals who will ENTER the MK age (when it COMMENCES, at the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth) are the "saints / the righteous / the BLESSED / the wise / the WHEAT..." (i.e. "believers / saints");




... but what I want to especially point out in this post (about what you've written) is that the SAME GREEK WORD is used in both Rev19:15b ("rule [G4165 - poimanei ('shepherd')]") that is also used in Revelation 7:[14,]17 (re: those "of all the nations" [v.9] who are shown as "coming out of GREAT tribulation [the SECOND HALF]"); and so verse 17 (PARALLEL to Isaiah 49:10) speaking of the MK age setting, says [v.17], "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne SHALL FEED [G4165 - poimanei ('shepherd')] them [/the nations--but speaking of those SAVED ones of the nations (not those who rejected Him!) THAT'S who will be permitted ENTRANCE into the earthly MK age, which Isa49:10 and context is speaking about]..."; You're "picturing" something else from this, because that's the IDEA you have in your head and are thus INJECTING it into these various texts (esp. 19:15b)

Those being born into the Millennial Kingdom...that is an interesting thought. Given that most of humanity throughout time has lived and died in rejection of Christ Jesus and of the existence of God.

Many professing believers, including myself for many decades, were/are of the opinion that all infants, pre-born and post, as well as little children before the point that they will be held accountable for their sin, MOST of all those who died before that point would have also rejected Christ had they reached that point in their lives. It's natural to want to think that they will be with the Lord regardless of their (what would have been) rejection of Christ. That makes death the mechanism of their salvation rather than death remaining the enemy of God and man. Death has become the friend of all those little ones who would otherwise have been cast into Hell, forced into Heaven for eternity regardless of what would have been an entirely different story for them.

That got me to thinking...what if it is THEY who will be born into the Millennial Kingdom where they would absolutely be allowed to reach that point in their lives that they may be tested, for we know from Revelation that most will once again live to rebel against the Lord by taking up arms on the side of Satan at the very end. It cannot be said that the Lord will force anyone into Heaven, and yet those in the cloud of humans who had died before reaching that point of decision will be forced into Heaven, even through ALL of humanity was born in sin?

We love assuming the point of accountability being what it may not have ever been intended to be in the mind of God. Just throwing out the possibility for consideration. Acceptance versus rejection of Christ is the purpose behind the test of sin in this fallen world. The coming of sin was not at all a surprise to the Lord. It fit with His plans perfectly, given that Christ was slain from the foundations of the world.

MM