Understanding God’s election

Yes, God can desire/call to save all but not all be saved because God desires that all be free or able to resist His desire or calling to be saved. No one will be in heaven against their will.

No, God cannot be loving to all and not exercise love to all, if He condemns all to hell with no chance of repentance/salvation.

Yes, hell/wrath expresses God's will

No, God is gracious and just to all.

Yes, God does not change from being both loving and just.

At least we agree on the last one!

“But apart from the intervention of God, all will choose death. “

all have already been condemned to death because of our sin …..that’s why we need salvation if we don’t accept the gospel we’ll die like everyone else in the world

god doesn’t choose for us he tells us the choice so we can be saved from that condemnation everyone is already condemned Christ can save us from the condemnation ….but again he’s already told us the truth about eternal life and given us the choice

those who believe the gospel will be saved Gods not going to believe the gospel for us however the gospel when he came to earth with us was and is his intervention

What you are saying that God is always loving to all is that casting someone into hell is a manifestation of love. Do you believe this?

God may not choose for us, but He definitely enables the choosing that takes place.

How free was he? As a natural man, he certainly had a propensity to sin. Otherwise, he would not and could not have sinned.

And God already knew which way the chips would fall... Eve was deceived but Adam was disobedient without being deceived.

I also shared the other day that I believed that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved...Romans 10:13. But I also believe that no one says Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit...1 Corinthians 12:3. If you answered I missed it. Can you share your thoughts on these verses?

And what was Satan? A natural Cherub?

This "natural man" business is nothing more than another Calvinist fallacy.
Calvinistic fatalists never fail to conjure up yet another preposterous brutal impossible ill founded barrier to make sure nobody gets saved. It's always something. And it's always a lie.

Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).
Having a saving faith is against their very nature!

We are not born with a sin nature but we are born innocent which is why the Bible says the angels always behold the face of the Father for the little ones.

We do not inherit a sin nature from Adam and Eve for everyone is responsible for their own sins which is why God said the son shall not bear the sins of the father and the father shall not bear the sins of the son but everyone will bear their own sins.

But when Adam and Eve ate from the tree it gave them a choice so all their offspring were born with a choice so they are born not knowing God so they will do wrong before they repent and follow Him if they do.

But we are born innocent until we sin understanding right from wrong.

2 - All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan,
and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).

If a person is not with God they would be a prisoner of Satan but they are not bent on doing whatever he wants them to do for this world would be way worse than it is which they have a choice in their actions whether good or bad

Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18).
Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them,
which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell.
If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!
Similarly, the “anyones” who believe in Jesus in verses such as John 3:16
are the ones whom God has given saving faith!

If God gives the person faith then how is that true faith if it does not come from them.

If God chooses who will be saved without their choice then how is that true love.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

How does God choose who will be saved and not saved if He wants all people to be saved.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

People need to understand what predestination to salvation means.

Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.who
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …
“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)

The Bible says many are called but few are chosen.

If God chooses who will be saved without their choice then why is He calling people who can't be chosen.

Not many mighty, not many noble, not many wise after the flesh are called.

When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work in their life to get them to the truth and if they get to the door of truth they have to decide to go through the door of truth for His kingdom is true love, but they would of not got to the door of truth if He did not intervene.

God is not choosing people to be saved without their choice, but He is calling people on earth according to their heart condition.

How do we have true love, true faith, and true repentance if it does not come from us.

We would then be robots so how could God the greatest love of all accept that.

God gave the angels a choice for if He did not then some would of not rebelled.

So why would God not give humans a choice.

Adam and Eve were created knowing God but He gave them a choice by putting tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden.

It would of never entered their mind to eat of that tree unless an outside source tempted them.

So God allowed Satan to tempt Eve and she said they could not eat of the tree for that is all she could think.

So Satan tempted her with an alternate reality that she would be greater so she ate and sinned.

Then Eve was the outside source that tempted Adam and he sinned.

If God gave them a choice by putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and allowed Satan to tempt Eve which they were created knowing God then why would He not give us a choice born not knowing God.

God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!
God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.
“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …
… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.
Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).

The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.[/QUOTE]

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Bible states that people that were saved can lose salvation, and there would not be warnings if it could not happen.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Stop playing your silly little games people because you want to live in sin.

Oh I cannot fall because it is OSAS so I think I will enjoy sin because I cannot lose salvation.

Ever learning and never able to come to the truth.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Yes.

Because perfect justice is not attained during this earthly existence, there is a resurrection and judgment (HB 9:27-28), when those who serve the Spirit of love (although imperfectly, PHP 3:12) are separated from demonic souls who do not even want to try to cooperate with the Holy Spirit (MT 25:31-46). Otherwise, there would be no ultimate justice and the entire biblical revelation would make no sense (1CR 15:14&19). If atheists/evil-doers remained unconscious after death, such ignorance would be relative bliss and morality would be nullified (ECC 2:12-17). Thus, hell (as a potential destiny) as well as heaven is good (part of the Duo of Desirables)!

The horror of self-condemnation for serving Satan is this: apparently the misery of hell does not motivate genuine repentance. Thus, God abandons people assigned to hell or second death (RV 20:6, RM 1:28-32), because they are hopelessly corrupt (JN 6:44). This destiny is eternal for anyone whose sins are infinite. For the rest, hell will end in destruction or non-existence after justice is achieved per the following passages:

JN 17:12, “None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.”

RM 9:22, “What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?”

GL 6:8a, “Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction.”

PHP 3:19a, “Their destiny is destruction.”

2THS 1:9a, “They will be punished with everlasting destruction.”

2PT 3:7, “By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.”

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Bible states that people that were saved can lose salvation, and there would not be warnings if it could not happen.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Stop playing your silly little games people because you want to live in sin.

Oh I cannot fall because it is OSAS so I think I will enjoy sin because I cannot lose salvation.

Ever learning and never able to come to the truth.[/QUOTE]

Amen!

I appreciate your honesty, but I will probably never understand that it is God acting in love as He casts people into hell. I can see it as a manifestation of justice, but not an endeavor of love.

Grace is a state of being. Once God grants it, you have it and are in that state of being. It starts with that state of being called repentance. This leads you to the state of being called belief (faith), and then to the state of being called love for God first, and all others as we love ourselves. You can't refuse it, and once you have it, you want to keep it.

Nothing here lines up with Calvin’s so called sovereignty.

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Agreed, all that he has stated in his word will come to pass.

If you use Ephesians 1 as part of your theology of election, then you would believe you were in Christ before the foundation of the world.

You asked to define sovereignty. I did. If you want sovereignty defined by a Calvinist, ask a Calvinist.

I do believe that. That conforms to what I stated.

Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Was He actually slain at that time? No. He was slain in the 1st century. But the issue was decided upon before the world was created. And because God is sovereign, when the fulness of time was come, Christ was made man and subsequently endured death on the cross.

Yes when we do this and receive what he promised … then he does what he says for believers .

Hearing them believing or not believing brings a result cause and effect if we hear him and believe then he will . bit if we hear him and reject what he said ? There’s a result

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭

But on the other hand

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we believe we won’t reject him and his word promising life and be judged instead well really hear what it was he ( Jesus ) was actually teaching in the gospel that can save us come judgement

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: ( don’t judge and you won’t be judged said the lord )

condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; ( you do this ….and you’ll receive this ) good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

( conclusion ) For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This kind of thing is what we want our judgement to be and not what Moses said it is he said “ show no mercy to sinners who offend you but an eye for an eye it shall go and a wound for a wound “

jesus said “ if someone offends you many times , be merciful because you have sinned many times and need mercy from me” treat others as you also need to be treated with mercy and forgiveness and kindness and care ect

on the other hand there’s an opposite warning

“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see the value and nature of this ? Everyone has already sinned or will sometime even if we think we haven’t ever if we’ve been around long we have in some way . And so all need to be saved from this sentence of death

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice it’s always based on what the person does then the result comes justly according to what God said ?

The gospel is what he said to Christian’s stuff like this

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬



because all of us need forgivness this stuff from Jesus teachings is more precious than gold because we’re imperfect and works in progress , we can always remember Jesus words and find what we really need .

the gospel is quite a design , God loves man and shoes it with his actions dying for us for our sins and wrongs against him and that sentence of death . Then he teaches those who hear and believe the message of Jesus Christ , to love others and lay down thier own desires and selfishness in thier deeds towards them in his name

he never demands sinless perfection he teaches to repent and to be perfect in mercy towards others. He knows we’re gonna fail at times because we’re imperfect and growing so he tells us the truth and invites belief

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we believe then now we understand about forgivness and it’s reciprocal nature receiving it from God and then being required to offer it to others because of his love for them as well as us who believe already so it is for those who are yet to hear and believe the gospel

sadly unless we really really look into the Bible it’s hard to really hear the gospel of we look at the Bible as if it’s a lesson book meant to be learned , believed and applied in our lives because we do believe and God has given us all we need to live right now so we lost our excuse to keep saying “ I’m just an incapable sinner “

now we have to say “ I’m a child of God in Christ “ and we dont live in sinful ways without remorse and repentance but we strive for upright living as we await our hope in him.

We’re all gonna be okay brother the lord has us and will deliver us if we don’t resist and reject his everlasting call

i dont like to pluck verses from context let’s look at what’s being said as the verse emerges and as it has concluded ( the context within scripture i mean) which I quoted earlier somewhere here but

“But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,

and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:8-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My thoughts are that’s all true but it’s not several seperate ideas it’s part of a concept Paul’s explaining all the verses are like if I wrote a letter to you I might take seven or eight sentences to say “ what I’m saying “

I don’t like to isolate single verses I do it also often but usually the verse is explained and understood by what the writer or Jesus was saying in the paragraph or chapter it’s found is my own experience with the Bible

then of course Paul and Peter and even Jesus often quoted old testsment scripture like Paul there was quoting Moses

“But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:14-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul is giving the New Testament version of that based on the gospel Jesus taught

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:31‬ ‭

Each point doesn’t cancel out the others it builds upon the first which is believing in jesus we aren’t to say well I believe in Jesus therefore “I get to ignore all he said about salvation “ we have to acknolwedge him as our lord

“noun

1. someone or something having power, authority, or influence; a master or ruler.”