I was wondering who believes you can get unsaved.

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do you believe you can be unsaved after salvation?

  • Total voters
    46
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#301
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Simply believing doesn't save a person. It is written that with the heart one believes into righteousness, and with the mouth acknowledgement is made into salvation

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10
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So, according to you, if a person believes unto righteousness, they are still lost? In Romans 4:5, we read - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. So, does "faith accounted for righteousness" equate to "still lost" according to you? :unsure:

I've heard certain folks (especially those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
 
G

GWH

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#302
Oct 19, 2024
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#302
mailmandan said:
I read scripture in context and properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine... I see that you have no rebuttal. You just simply disagree.
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...employing God's gift of logic or reasoning, emulating the method of Jesus per Luke 24:27 and Paul in Acts 17:17. Excellent!
 
C

ChristRoseFromTheDead

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#303
mailmandan said:
So, according to you, if a person believes unto righteousness, they are still lost? In Romans 4:5, we read - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. So, does "faith accounted for righteousness" equate to "still lost" according to you? :unsure:

I've heard certain folks (especially those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.
Click to expand...
Works of faith do not contradict justification by faith. When Paul contrasts works and faith he is referring to works of law
 
J

JesusIsSovereign

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#304
Beckworth said:
Yes, we have security in Christ as long as we stay in the fold of Christ. Luke 15 proves that we can leave of our own free will and be lost. Consider carefully these things. You don’t want to hold on to a false doctrine or a doctrine made by man (John Calvin). 2 John 9 says if we don’t abide in the doctrine of God, we don’t have God. I want you to be saved, not surprised on judgement day.
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(I do not agree with John Calvin and I want to make that clear first) So it's not complete security based on what you're saying because we can lose our salvation (that is, our salvation isn't secure). I believe you cannot be unsaved and also have free will at the same time. God already has chosen an amount to be saved and they are going to be saved no matter what we may or may not do, in other words, God already predestined an amount to be saved before the foundation of the world. Do you believe this? This people God has chosen is called the elect. This people will be saved and are saved no matter what anyone does and this people are God's sheep. There are some (of His sheep, part of the elect) though (as we discussed earlier) that are not yet part of this fold. Now regarding Luke 15 (assuming you're talking about verses 3-5), this lost sheep didn't escape the security of salvation God gives Him. This lost sheep is like one born (as we are all born lost) being part of the elect and Jesus draws those lost sheep into His fold. Sure, by our sin nature we (already being saved and not being unsaved) sometimes doubt, get bored of going to church and reading the Bible, obeying God, etc but Jesus always draws us back and we never at any point lost our salvation. (Just a fun thought, can we lose something that has no end, i.e, eternal life?). The elect, the people God has chosen for Himself, hears Jesus' voice, and they listen.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#305
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Works of faith do not contradict justification by faith. When Paul contrasts works and faith he is referring to works of law
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In an effort to get around the truth, people who teach salvation by works often try to turn "not saved by works" passages into saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) but that argument is bogus.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now which good works could a Christian could do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

So when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law of Moses. In Titus 3:5, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. so "not saved by works" is not merely limited to specific works under the law of Moses, but works in general.
 
Webers.Home

Webers.Home

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#306
Beckworth said:
Yes, we have security in Christ as long as we stay in the fold of Christ. Luke 15 proves that w
can leave of our own free will and be lost.
Click to expand...

You've gone and made the sheep's safety the sheep's responsibility when
their safety is actually the shepherd's responsibility.

And besides; animal husbandry isn't democratic, on the contrary: it's quite
despotic, i.e. a rancher's free will trumps the herd's free will. So be advised:
once someone makes the decision to unify with Christ, they relinquish
whatever sovereignty they had as a beast at large and become Christ's
property.

● 1Cor 6:19-20 . .You are not your own; you were bought at a price.

Now; it is the Father's will that Jesus lose none of the sheep entrusted to his
care.

● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.

Jesus claims he never fails to give the One what He wants.

● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

You've as much as cast a nay vote of confidence in Jesus' reliability to
always please the One who sent him. Ouch! That's a huge mistake because
it's necessary to believe in God's son in order to benefit from John 3:16 and
John 5:24.

And should the task prove too much for the shepherd, then the sheep's
safety becomes his Father's responsibility because they together are a tag
team, so to speak.

● John 10:28-29 . . No one can take them out of my hand-- my Father, who
has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one can take them out of
the Father's hand. I and my Father stand together.

"no one" of course includes the sheep seeing as how the Greek word actually
means not even one (man, woman or thing) i.e. none, nobody, nothing.
_
 
ZNP

ZNP

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enril said:
can we keep the arguing down?
I am also looking for biblical quotes. not convictions.
I fall firmly into believing that you can get unsaved, because I did choose not to accept christ. as a concious decision. like, i thought, i dont want it for myself. maybe someday. i believe it to be truth, but i do not accept the truth. I still care about others being and getting saved, but i myself do not want ti.
until I got saved, and truly believe his love now.
Click to expand...
I think the problem arises with the definition of saved. These debates are always unprofitable because people do not define clearly from the word of God what the terms are and they assume every term is equal to being saved. The Bible is precise and specific.
 
J

JesusIsSovereign

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#308
enril said:
can we keep the arguing down?
I am also looking for biblical quotes. not convictions.
I fall firmly into believing that you can get unsaved, because I did choose not to accept christ. as a concious decision. like, i thought, i dont want it for myself. maybe someday. i believe it to be truth, but i do not accept the truth. I still care about others being and getting saved, but i myself do not want ti.
until I got saved, and truly believe his love now.
Click to expand...
Webers.Home said:
You've gone and made the sheep's safety the sheep's responsibility when
their safety is actually the shepherd's responsibility.

And besides; animal husbandry isn't democratic, on the contrary: it's quite
despotic, i.e. a rancher's free will trumps the herd's free will. So be advised:
once someone makes the decision to unify with Christ, they relinquish
whatever sovereignty they had as a beast at large and become Christ's
property.

● 1Cor 6:19-20 . .You are not your own; you were bought at a price.

Now; it is the Father's will that Jesus lose none of the sheep entrusted to his
care.

● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.

Jesus claims he never fails to give the One what He wants.

● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

You've as much as cast a nay vote of confidence in Jesus' reliability to
always please the One who sent him. Ouch! That's a huge mistake because
it's necessary to believe in God's son in order to benefit from John 3:16 and
John 5:24.

And should the task prove too much for the shepherd, then the sheep's
safety becomes his Father's responsibility because they together are a tag
team, so to speak.

● John 10:28-29 . . No one can take them out of my hand-- my Father, who
has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one can take them out of
the Father's hand. I and my Father stand together.

"no one" of course includes the sheep seeing as how the Greek word actually
means not even one (man, woman or thing) i.e. none, nobody, nothing.
_
Click to expand...
I agree with what you say, but the only thing I've got to say here is that we do have free will. I like to think of it on how we (His sheep) are born into sin, being lost, and out of our free will we only choose sin because it's our nature and the only thing we want, so we can't do good (Romans 3). But then God, by the Holy Spirit, gives us a new nature, good desires, so that we now have the ability to free willingly choose righteously because now we have a new desire given by the Holy Spirit to do good for God's glory and to choose and trust in Christ alone for salvation.
 
Webers.Home

Webers.Home

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JesusIsSovereign said:
the only thing I've got to say here is that we do have free will
Click to expand...

Speaking for myself: I have enough latitude in the good shepherd's flock to
get myself into all kinds of trouble within the fold.

● Gal 5:13a . . You, my brethren, were called to be free. But do not use your
liberty to indulge the base nature

But I will never be free to break away and go off on my own. Jesus would be
a very irresponsible shepherd were he to let that happen to the sheep his
Father gave him to manage.

● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.

● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

You know, even if Jesus wasn't accountable to his Father for the sheep's
care, I think he would still be conscientious enough to make sure none got
lost. For example:

"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them
wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look
for the one that wandered off?" (Matt 18:12-13)
_
 
J

JesusIsSovereign

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Webers.Home said:
Speaking for myself: I have enough latitude in the good shepherd's flock to
get myself into all kinds of trouble within the fold.

● Gal 5:13a . . You, my brethren, were called to be free. But do not use your
liberty to indulge the base nature

But I will never be free to break away and go off on my own. Jesus would be
a very irresponsible shepherd were he to let that happen to the sheep his
Father gave him to manage.

● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.

● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

You know, even if Jesus wasn't accountable to his Father for the sheep's
care, I think he would still be conscientious enough to make sure none got
lost. For example:

"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them
wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look
for the one that wandered off?" (Matt 18:12-13)
_
Click to expand...
Jesus always draws His sheep back to Himself, so yeah.
 
psalms22

psalms22

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#311
mailmandan said:
I read scripture in context and properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. I see that you have no rebuttal. You just simply disagree.
Click to expand...
no your right i just want over it my bad belief. is to believe in the gospel and accept the it in the heart i gave my opinion above you. your point is good.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#312
psalms22 said:
no your right i just want over it my bad belief. is to believe in the gospel and accept the it in the heart i gave my opinion above you. your point is good.
Click to expand...
What do you believe the gospel IS and what do you believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel?
 
psalms22

psalms22

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mailmandan said:
What do you believe the gospel IS and what do you believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel?
Click to expand...
believe in the gospel believe in him and the one he sent believe he came what he paid for with his death, what his resurrection was for, believe and accept. did you read what i said? believe in him and he will save you he will send the helper and you will no longer live in darkness. these people are under grace not law these people will not be lost again they are saved sin no longer has a hold on the but the flesh is weak they will stumble
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#314
psalms22 said:
believe in the gospel believe in him and the one he sent believe he came what he paid for with his death, what his resurrection was for, believe and accept. did you read what i said? believe in him and he will save you he will send the helper and you will no longer live in darkness. these people are under grace not law these people will not be lost again they are saved sin no longer has a hold on the but the flesh is weak they will stumble
Click to expand...
The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.
 
Webers.Home

Webers.Home

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#315
mailmandan said:
what do you believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel?
Click to expand...

Well, as for me, I'm pretty sure the element of confidence is a huge part of
believing in someone.

A charming example of this was acted out in an old movie wherein Spencer
Tracey played Thomas Edison. In a scene, he tasked a young boy with
carrying his freshly completed prototype of an electric light bulb upstairs to
the lab for testing. The boy stumbled on the stairs, and the bulb was
shattered.

So Tracey made another and tasked the same boy with taking it upstairs
again. Tracy's assistants protested that the boy dropped one bulb already;
but Tracey handed him the precious prototype and said: He won't drop this
one. And the boy didn't because Tracey believed in that kid, and I really
think that is a very good way to interpret the belief spoken of in John 3:16,
John 5:24, and John 14:1
_
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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#316
GWH said:
I am happy to find out that the other threads on this topic are mere arguments so that I do not need to spend time perusing them. Instead I will share the result of my study of Scripture:

Christians need to understand that salvation has three stages or time components. They were saved from ultimate hell at the moment of deciding to accept Jesus as Lord (EPH 1:13, RV 3:20), they are (being) saved or perfected morally while remaining loyal to Jesus (JM 1:3-4), and they will be saved bodily on the day of resurrection (ZCH 14:1-9, 1THS 4:16, cf. 1CR 15:35-55).

The spiritual union between believers and Christ is comparable to marriage (EPH 5:23-32), and just as a husband and wife need to continue their commitment until they part at death, Christians also need to retain saving faith (LK 9:23, 2CR 4:16) as they grow spiritually, learning how to become more like Christ or achieve His fullness.

Saying we “need” perseverance prompts this question: Is it possible for a Christian to repudiate his/her saving faith and become apostate or again bound for hell? Before seeking to answer this question, we should remember that although perseverance is an implicit part of the creed, understanding the details of this or any doctrine is not necessary in order to remain saved, because the kerygma is simple enough for a young soul to understand (cf. MT 18:3), and didachaic details can become rather complicated and controversial.

There are numerous verses in the NT which indicate that it is possible for a believer intentionally or willfully to separate him/herself from Christ (cf. GL 5:1 & RV 12:9). The classic passage that teaches the possibility of apostasy is Hebrews 6:4-6: “It is impossible for those who have… shared in the Holy Spirit… if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.” Another verse in this vein is Galatians 5:4: “You who are trying to be justified by law… have fallen away from grace.” (Also see RM 11:22, 1CR 15:2, CL 1:22-23, 2THS 1:4-5, 2TM 2:12, HB 3:6&14, 10:35-36, JM 1:12, 2PT 1:10-11, 2:20, 1JN 2:24-25 and RV 2:10.)

(I can post these Scriptures for consideration if y'all want me to do so. :^)
Click to expand...
In reference to Heb 6

The impossible thing to do is if one could fall away, to renew them to repentence (Ie, if they could lose salvation, as the law taught, they could never be resaved again)

it does not say falling away is possible. or one could forfiet his or her salvation.

Gal 5: 4 also. Grace is offered. If we fall away before we actually recieve it. we can fall away. The people paul spoke to in Gal were people who had faith int he law. they did nto really have faith in grace. or they never would have returned to law. I am reminded of the verse that says a dog returns to his vomit. because he is still a dog. In context. the law would be the dogs vomit..

Rom 11:22 - Context is gentiles and Jews or Israel. The jewish nation was cut off. and everything was handed to the gentile church.. The warning is if the gentile church does not contionue, they too can be cut of. In fact we are told they will be. and all israel will be saved.. Induvidual salvation is not in context here

1 cor 15: 2. The fact he said they may have believed in vein shows something.. for one. many believe but they do not have faith.. Those that have faith. we know they were sealed by the spirit. those who do not have faith.. well as James said even demons believe yet tremble.. Not everyone who goes to our church is saved.. Many will fall away, we can be asssured. they were never saved to begin with.. John makes this clear in his epistle.. But we also need to make sure they are not prodigal children, vs a person who now rejects christ.. Just because someone stops coming. does not mean they have given God the finger so to speak.

col 1: 22-23 again, see the last post. I am also remined of other words of the Scripture concerning falling away, in Heb 10: 39
But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

I can go on, but we see a pattern here and we need to make sure we take things in context.

Also. I think we need to believe and trust in the promise of God

He said we have eternal life.. now If I can lose eternal life. i do not have it

He said 3 times we are sealed with the spirit until the day of redemption.; If the spirit is my pledge, and I am sealed until ressurection day. I can not lose salvation.

It says he will never leave nor forsake us. I am reminded of the OT words, where can I go where you are not there. God is omnipresent. no matter where we go. he is there with us, I can not leave him, and thus He will never lose me.

again, I can go on and on.

its on God not us

You do not lose faith in people you trust unless they fail you. God never fails us, so we have no reason to lose faith UNLESS we never really had faith to begin with.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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#317
Brasspen said:
Some have already said why I believe you can *get unsaved. By get, you move away from God. We have our own free will with God. But, Jesus said you cannot be taken from him, unwillingly.

Keep in mind that God is forgiving God. God Is slow to wrath and quick to mercy.
Uh, the scripture on the prodical son anyone?
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Amen

The prodigal son never stopped being the son, He lost his fathers blessings, but he never lost his sonship
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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#318
Firmament4 said:
So if i go every day until I die i Murder and fornicate I'll go to heaven? God turned his back on Israel because they ditched him. He gave them a bill of divorce.
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I know this guy is banned.

But want to answer for the room

John said whoever is born of God can nto do this..

I think John knows what he is talking about
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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#320
Brasspen said:
Yes, but remember that God has he's limits. Sometimes the line has been crossed too far. You can get buried too far away from God. Remember the struggle with leviathan, and do not do it again.
Some people do not get a second chance from God. As we see in the holy bible.
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whats this line?

The law said if we stumble in one area we are guilty? if stumbling on accident and sinning condemned. How can we ever sin ourself out of what we could never earn to begin with?
 
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